Sunak V Starmer

Regarding retention of teachers, I agree with posters on here who have family experience of the profession. Teaching is a difficult job, and has been made almost intolerable by consecutive Conservative governments. Michael Gove alone set classroom practice back 50 years!

Few teachers cite ‘classroom discipline’ as a reason for leaving the profession. They become teachers because they want to make a difference for children, and they understand the challenges that many children face. If teachers were allowed to teach to the needs of the pupils rather the requirements of a politically enforced curriculum I believe things could change.

Currently, teachers are bound by inappropriate testing, target setting and league tables - pitting school against school. All this leads to too much teaching and not enough learning which, in turn, leads to disaffected young people. I could go on & on but I’m sure you’d rather I didn’t!

I will never ‘write off’ swathes of children by likening them to animals when, in reality, it’s the system from the top that is failing them. We are the adults!

No - I believed the permanent secretary and the ORS.

MaizieD

Katie590

Whitewave, I agree entirely they are fantasy figures, so why are the media highlighting them, why are we discussing them.

Sunak and Starmer are polititians they will lie, cheat and bribe to get votes, nothing new in that.

why are we discussing them?

I think we're discussing them because you started looking at detail and posted the link to the government produced documents. Isn't discussion what you invited by doing that?

Sure, but nobody else had bothered to dig out the spending plans to see what was proposed, everyone else just believed the media spin.

Katie590

Whitewave, I agree entirely they are fantasy figures, so why are the media highlighting them, why are we discussing them.

Sunak and Starmer are polititians they will lie, cheat and bribe to get votes, nothing new in that.

why are we discussing them?

I think we're discussing them because you started looking at detail and posted the link to the government produced documents. Isn't discussion what you invited by doing that?

“Costings don't give any information on the effects of the vosted proposals on the economy, such as the multiplier effect (the amount of economic activity produced by each £1 of spending), efficiency savings or returns to the treasury by way of taxation.”

With the non dom and private schools proposals there were calculations of the negative effects of the changes, whether they are realistic is anyone’s guess.
The Warm Homes scheme would be increased economic activity but the estimate did have doubts whether it would be achievable. Where are they going to find the extra workers for what is a very labour intensive programme, in addition to the existing building commitments.

Whitewave, I agree entirely they are fantasy figures, so why are the media highlighting them, why are we discussing them.

Sunak and Starmer are polititians they will lie, cheat and bribe to get votes, nothing new in that.

Fascinating documents, Katie590, thanks for thevlink.

But of course they come with a health warning.

They are not based on a manifesto, but on various announcements by shadow ministers on items which may, or may not, make it into the manifesto.

'Some information supplied by Special Advisers'. is noted in some of the documents. Spads will, of course, be non civil service government appointees, not connected to the opposition in any way.

Costings don't give any information on the effects of the vosted proposals on the economy, such as the multiplier effect (the amount of economic activity produced by each £1 of spending), efficiency savings or returns to the treasury by way of taxation.

I wouldn't be taking them as set in stone.

Katie590

www.gov.uk/government/publications/opposition-policy-costings-2024

Here is the Treasury costings as published the big single item is the Warm Homes plan plus lots of other smaller increases in spending, and the extra taxation they expect to get from non doms and private schools.

It just cannot be done on £500 a year unless a lot more is borrowed.

😀😀 the £500 a year is a rubbish figure.

Use the same method and we discover that the Tories planned spending is going to cost £3000 over the same period. But that figure is as daft as the other one.

Why waste so much time discussing fantasy figures?

I note Sunak was so intent on trying to save his lying skin that he left the D Day commemorations. That is utterly unforgivable.

Thanks Katie590upgrading 18 million homes to EPC C is established to be £7529 per home

Iam64

Gloryannie and LizzieDrip speak from long experience and address the issues of why it’s so hard to retain teachers. One of my daughters taught primary for 8 years before leaving because it was impossible to balance family life with the king hours, weekend working every teacher faces.
It’s also a imo significant that we’ve had austerity and a government with no respect or regard for public service

It’s the same in the Health Service you are asked to do more and more with less each year, I gave up as a midwife 5 yrs ago, the job was not about patient care it was a solid 12 hours of box ticking.

You followed the script and ticked the boxes, it was a world away from when I started.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/opposition-policy-costings-2024

Here is the Treasury costings as published the big single item is the Warm Homes plan plus lots of other smaller increases in spending, and the extra taxation they expect to get from non doms and private schools.

It just cannot be done on £500 a year unless a lot more is borrowed.

The OSR is clear
‘Our remit focuses on official statistics produced on official statistics by Government. It is not therefore for us to say whether the number itself is accurate or not.’
So the number wasn’t produced by Government but the OSR does not know the accurate figures? More confusing by the minute.

Gloryannie and LizzieDrip speak from long experience and address the issues of why it’s so hard to retain teachers. One of my daughters taught primary for 8 years before leaving because it was impossible to balance family life with the king hours, weekend working every teacher faces.
It’s also a imo significant that we’ve had austerity and a government with no respect or regard for public service

The £2000 that has been disputed has now been interpreted as £500 a year, or £10 a week across the 18m households in the UK.
If any government is going to improve services it’s going to need a lot more than that, because it’s only 2.5% of public spending which just keeps up with inflation

I note that Sunak has been reprimanded over the false £2k tax claim by the ORS.

But the idiot Tories seem to be doubling down on the lie.

The more they do, the more they enforce the fact that Tories lie and have not changed since Johnson.

Bump

Germanshepherdsmum

I imagine there’s a lot of truth in it.

There is! Teenagers asking to go to the toilet every 5 minutes just so they can go out and vape. Teaching being disrupted continually one way or another. The stress for teachers is enormous.

My adult children are teachers.

Siope

I was. I thought it was dreadful. The format doesn’t work, there isn’t enough time to develop sensible and detailed answers, the moderation was weak, and the whole thing just felt like it wouldn’t help anyone undecided.

Absolutely agree. It was dreadful.

Katie590

I didnt think it was that bad but 40-60% of new trainees have left the classroom within 5 yrs, older teachers retiring early add to that.

Basically you can have very little private or personal life as a teacher. You need to get in early, work late and spend weekends catching up on the stuff you didn't manage to do during the week. The ridiculous thing is this doesn't really impact on the quality of your teaching. It's box ticking and paper shuffling.

I didnt think it was that bad but 40-60% of new trainees have left the classroom within 5 yrs, older teachers retiring early add to that.

I agree with Glorianny’s points. I’m out for the evening now but I’ll give you the reasons from my perspective later (or tomorrow - depending how many glasses of wine I have)

Katie590

LizzieDrip

Katie590 & GSM I presume your both talking from experience?

Perhaps you can explain why there is a very high drop out as soon as new teachers get into the classroom

The reasons are many this from a report.
^The reasons for leaving teaching were complex and multifaceted. Teachers tended to cite multiple contributing factors17, although generally there was a key reason which was
more prominent than others. Key reasons included workload (including volume of marking and planning), stress and ill health, and school leadership, policy and approaches. Government policy and curriculum and assessment changes also played in a role in some teachers’ decision to leave^
Workload is one of the major issues, The planning, marking and paperwork take over your life
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5aa15d24e5274a53c0b29341/Factors_affecting_teacher_retention_-_qualitative_investigation.pdf

I think anyone with kids or grandkids in many comps would agree that they are little better than a zoo. The Covid shutdowns seem to have made it worse.🤷‍♀️

LizzieDrip

Katie590 & GSM I presume your both talking from experience?

Perhaps you can explain why there is a very high drop out as soon as new teachers get into the classroom

My son went to a comprehensive school. The only one in the catchment area. There were some very disruptive pupils, one of whom was subsequently jailed for a drug-related murder. He had a decent group of friends but things went downhill when the good headmaster left and a new ‘young and progressive’ one came along and some of the best teachers left. Thankfully my son was sufficiently advanced in his school career not to have been affected - but those in lower years were and the school really deteriorated. So yes, some classes became little better than a zoo. I’m grateful that my son left before that, or he would never have achieved what he has.