Sunak V Starmer

My labels are for the children but I don’t refer to them that way, like you might.

Mollygo

Glorianny, 🤣🤣🤣 say what you like. It doesn’t make you right. The files on my computer class spread sheets have labels for the appropriate children like ASC, Dys, HP, PM, 121 etc. It’s not discriminatory it’s just practical.
Your post shows a lack of up to date knowledge about how labels help.

Your labels are for the spread sheet not for the children.

Glorianny, 🤣🤣🤣 say what you like. It doesn’t make you right. The files on my computer class spread sheets have labels for the appropriate children like ASC, Dys, HP, PM, 121 etc. It’s not discriminatory it’s just practical.
Your post shows a lack of up to date knowledge about how labels help.

Mollygo

Labels/diagnoses whatever you like to call them, identify conditions that are barriers to learning and help less experienced staff to deal with those. More experienced teachers know how to help children without labels, but should continue to update their skills as new diagnoses/labels or new techniques appear.
An increasing number of parents are happier when their child has a label that they can use to understand their child’s problems or explain their child’s difficulties to others.
Many adults are also seeking a diagnosis for the same reason. E.g. you read posts from adults, even on GN happy to at last be able to explain that their ASC has been diagnosed and explains the problems they have lived with.

These are not labels they are diagnosis.
The concept of a label is derogatory and is not helpful. It shows a lack of knowledge about disability rights, discrimination and difference.
Things have labels, children do not.

Labels/diagnoses whatever you like to call them, identify conditions that are barriers to learning and help less experienced staff to deal with those. More experienced teachers know how to help children without labels, but should continue to update their skills as new diagnoses/labels or new techniques appear.
An increasing number of parents are happier when their child has a label that they can use to understand their child’s problems or explain their child’s difficulties to others.
Many adults are also seeking a diagnosis for the same reason. E.g. you read posts from adults, even on GN happy to at last be able to explain that their ASC has been diagnosed and explains the problems they have lived with.

Mollygo

The plethora of labels is simply a way of describing the different barriers to learning.

People learn in different ways. There are no barriers only different routes. Diagnosis helps understanding of how the child learns and what adaptations need to be made. It is not and never should be described as a label.

That was certainly my experience. COG of small rural school in an authority that was amongst the lowest funded per pupil, few children with PP and old buildings that required a lot of maintenance. Budget was always at the wire and a failure to recruit the 20 per year (mixed year classes) really hit us not helped by fact year 6 classroom was only big enough to take 20 children. It was a good school and generally popular with parents. A school has to have a very strong case for not taking a SEN child and we found we became increasingly popular with parents who were disatisfied with their children's current school and because of the cut off point for funding we often found we were taking a child with considerable needs without any funding. Did this affect the education of other children? Yes, sometimes it most definitely did and it certainly put a lot of extra pressure on the teaching staff because they were good teachers and wanted to do the best they could for all the children in their class. We never excluded a child but came close on one occasion with a child who really struggled in a mainstream environment and who could become violent.

Gloriannny is correct in my experience, schools in areas with high deprivation had excellent processes to support children. Schools in les challenging areas often lacked good pastoral care and were quick to exclude.
‘Plethora of labels’ - a diagnosis can help schools support children who were at risk of/already labelled disruptive

The plethora of labels is simply a way of describing the different barriers to learning.

Mollygo

And the plethora of labels?

I take it this is a reference to neurodivergent children. I imagined terms like this had been abandoned by anyone in education years ago.
Identifying those children who are different is not labelling them. It's recognising their differences and hopefully adapting teaching to meet their needs.

And the plethora of labels?

Mollygo

Many of the problems faced by teachers now are different from those in the past. Apart from all the labels that have accumulated, parental support has changed in a lot (not all) cases. Consistent treatment is effective, eventually, but anyone working in today’s classrooms, whether primary or secondary will appreciate the difference between now and even when I started teaching.

The problems of deprivation, parental neglect, inadequate or inconsistent discipline, family breakdown and poverty have always been there. They have probably expanded into schools that never had to cope with such things in the past, but they were always there.
One thing I noticed was that schools that consistently dealt with such children had in many cases (not all) real processes that worked and staff used to dealing with the issues. They dealt with them effectively. Schools not used to such things struggled to deal with the occasional disruptive child.
Parental support has always been variable and some have always been abusive.

Many of the problems faced by teachers now are different from those in the past. Apart from all the labels that have accumulated, parental support has changed in a lot (not all) cases. Consistent treatment is effective, eventually, but anyone working in today’s classrooms, whether primary or secondary will appreciate the difference between now and even when I started teaching.

polly123

Wyllow3

polly123

As a retired teacher I can confirm that disruptive behaviour of children with little or no support, is a major factor in causing an exodus of the teaching profession. That together with difficult and unreasonable parents make teaching a real challenge. One or more challenging pupils can distract other children who want to learn and create an atmosphere of tension as well as waste immeasurable amounts of teaching time. There are always 'behaviour management' strategies in place but without support, they are useless.

Will more classroom assistants help with this or supervised spaces in schools where pupils can be sent to?

I had great teaching assistants but they were very busy with targeted group work and helping other children to learn or catch up. The issue seemed to be that there seemed to be few consequences for disruptive children when the situation became very difficult. It was not helped by teachers who wanted to be their friend and allowed poor behaviour with warnings that were never followed up. The inconsistency of expectation of good behaviour varied enormously.

That's a school and management problem.
I've seen and worked in schools where disruptive children were consistently dealt with. It does take experienced teachers and a clear policy which is always applied. I learned an awful lot from some very effective teachers. All will now be retired.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Sorry you feel barraged Glorianny. If you read things do you never question them?

Wyllow3

polly123

As a retired teacher I can confirm that disruptive behaviour of children with little or no support, is a major factor in causing an exodus of the teaching profession. That together with difficult and unreasonable parents make teaching a real challenge. One or more challenging pupils can distract other children who want to learn and create an atmosphere of tension as well as waste immeasurable amounts of teaching time. There are always 'behaviour management' strategies in place but without support, they are useless.

Will more classroom assistants help with this or supervised spaces in schools where pupils can be sent to?

I had great teaching assistants but they were very busy with targeted group work and helping other children to learn or catch up. The issue seemed to be that there seemed to be few consequences for disruptive children when the situation became very difficult. It was not helped by teachers who wanted to be their friend and allowed poor behaviour with warnings that were never followed up. The inconsistency of expectation of good behaviour varied enormously.

Mollygo

Why won’t it happen? Do you think the money won’t be forthcoming?
How many additional adults do you think is reasonable in a classroom?
Processes agreed and respect? Certainly with the staff involved, but children don’t always understand those terms and now even less than the 20 years ago when you were in the classroom.
Teaching in corridors -groups possibly. But none of our corridors would be wide enough and besides, they provide toilet access, so involve disturbance. Our SEND children are often those who find focusing difficult. Do you really think that’s the best way to provide for them.
As a short term solution caused by building problems, I taught Reception/Y1 for over a term in the school hall, meaning we had to move for PE and setting up the hall for lunch time.
It can be done, but I wouldn’t recommend it, would you?
Do you think the money will be forthcoming for the new buildings to accommodate all the extra teachers promised?

Why do you feel the need to interrogate me Mollygo with such a barrage of questions?
Children don't need to understand processes, just that they are being applied and adhered to. It's mixed messages that confuse children.

Why do you feel I must supply solutions for your school?

I didn't say it was the best solution just that I had done it.
I don't think there will be enough money. There wasn't last time. So we got PFI.

Why won’t it happen? Do you think the money won’t be forthcoming?
How many additional adults do you think is reasonable in a classroom?
Processes agreed and respect? Certainly with the staff involved, but children don’t always understand those terms and now even less than the 20 years ago when you were in the classroom.
Teaching in corridors -groups possibly. But none of our corridors would be wide enough and besides, they provide toilet access, so involve disturbance. Our SEND children are often those who find focusing difficult. Do you really think that’s the best way to provide for them.
As a short term solution caused by building problems, I taught Reception/Y1 for over a term in the school hall, meaning we had to move for PE and setting up the hall for lunch time.
It can be done, but I wouldn’t recommend it, would you?
Do you think the money will be forthcoming for the new buildings to accommodate all the extra teachers promised?

Mollygo

^It isn't necessary to construct a curriculum simply to adapt the present curriculum to the needs of children.^

Absolutely Glorianny. That is as true now as it was when you stopped teaching all those years ago.

^Smaller classes and more teachers? We’re back to the potential for schools to provide more classroom spaces. Many schools can’t, but those, like mine who could will really appreciate the promised funding to enable that to happen. Do you think we’ll get it from any government?

More qualified support staff? In principle I agree but up to how many extra adults would you say it is reasonable to have in a classroom, before they become a distraction in themselves?
Children’s needs, even outside SEND can be so different, but in a class where, e.g. I think you mentioned a large percentage had special needs, how many extra staff would you have wanted?

Smaller classes could simply be smaller groups working with a teacher. For classroom based things like registration the numbers would be bigger. I've worked in classrooms with other people, classroom assistants and teachers. It works well if processes are agreed beforehand and respect for others is established. I've also worked with groups in corners and corridors.
The class I was working with needed a huge amount of input. All of them had virtually missed out on reception work, having had a teacher who had been off sick a long time and a series of supply teachers. Perhaps that would be a good idea as well. A team who worked with classes with problems and nurtured them.
It won't happen of course.

I did not watch it as you rarely get points answered , just tit for tat answers and blaming each other. I would rather go to a live meeting , where I have the chance to get some answers , as I will persist until I do. Anyway Sunak ,even if he wasnt already likely to lose, has already shot himself in the foot and shown what he and his advisers think is important. As Prime Minister, to have left the D Day meeting, just for his own political reasons, was a disgrace. If he was so crass and insensitive as to think that the overall occasion, in which heads of state etc were all at least attempting to talk after the ceremonies, to hopefully encourage any improvement in peace between people; you would have thought that his so called advisors might have had a little bit of thought as to how this would look to everyone. Well , it certainly shows who the conservatives put first. A clear case of ME, MYSELF and I. Whatever excuses or reasons are given, actions speak louder than words!! Unfortunately he not only showed his own lack of respect, but he was there as our PM , and supposedly representing all of Britain. Luckily we had the King, ~Starmer, and those soldiers who made such a great effort to be there to represent themselves and their comrades., and many others who showed the respect deserved on the occasion

"Anyone watching?" - said the title. Well, despite the evidence of previous shows in other elections, maybe some folk did?!

We saw a few seconds, while changing channels (hadn't realised it was on!).

One of the media newsletter emails I get had this joke (sums it up so well):- An election debate which subtracted from the net total of human knowledge.

To say it was aimed at the lowest common denominator is an insult to fractions {courtesy of the 'i'}.

PS:- I note in passing that the BBC, in a fit of excitement about the election that apparently 99+% of the population don't share, have moved the gruesome Question Time from its usual slot after the 10pm News to 'prime time' AHEAD of that news.

In MY country, the head of the BBC would not just be removed from that position, they'd be doing so by walking the plank in shark-infested waters [you could do it with a phone vote, to help them make a few quid . . . "phone to give him a longer plank . . .or this number for shorter"]

It isn't necessary to construct a curriculum simply to adapt the present curriculum to the needs of children.

Absolutely Glorianny. That is as true now as it was when you stopped teaching all those years ago.

^Smaller classes and more teachers? We’re back to the potential for schools to provide more classroom spaces. Many schools can’t, but those, like mine who could will really appreciate the promised funding to enable that to happen. Do you think we’ll get it from any government?

More qualified support staff? In principle I agree but up to how many extra adults would you say it is reasonable to have in a classroom, before they become a distraction in themselves?
Children’s needs, even outside SEND can be so different, but in a class where, e.g. I think you mentioned a large percentage had special needs, how many extra staff would you have wanted?

Thank you Glorianny👏👏👏

It’s hardly a debate. No debating rules followed