Europe’s voting for the right just as we're turning left!

I'm inclined to agree Galaxy, reading an article in The Guardian, the disaffection with Macron amongst the beleaguered working classes in France, is that he is perceived as lofty and appear to have little empathy with those who are struggling with the cost of living. I'm not sure what France's stance is with identity politics but issues such as those have been elevated to such prominence they mask so much of what is actually affecting the ordinary person and apart from resonating with a minority, the vast majority of the population have little interest. I thought the LGBT month of June had been toned down a little this year, it was so full on last year with constant announcements in M&S for example blasting out their support, I haven't noticed it quite so much. Although I gather Regents Street is still decked out in rainbow flags in the mode of an occupying force having taken over the country. The push for net zero, lack of housing and in some areas, unfettered immigration is the driving force that has catapulted the swing, in some European countries towards the right. Anyway, we need to give a new Labour administration a chance to see how they measure up, possibly they will have an eye towards Europe holding the thought that voters' loyalties can turn in a heartbeat.

Dickens

I think the move to the Right is because of immigration, especially in Germany.

I doubt all are against it in principle - but people have the feeling that the EU doesn't have a grip on the situation and there's no real integrated plan for dealing with the problem. Some countries are taking more than their 'fair share'.

Merkel's gesture "we will cope" was magnanimous, but the reality is that those who are coping are not those who made the decisions. And there have been some atrocities in both Germany and France, they are rare, but they put people on their guard.

Immigrants have mostly a strong sense of tribal loyalty to their culture and their religion (understandably) - what some politicians and people don't understand is that those in the host country also have the same attachments, and when their culture changes rapidly, it unnerves them.

Immigration is now a fact of life, but it has to be dealt with pragmatically, and fairly. Not least for the sake of the immigrants themselves if there is to be peaceful co-existence.

It still doesn’t explain the willingness to vote for an out and out
fascist party. There are other parties who say they will control immigration.

Yes, immigration is certainly one factor but I don’t think it explains it entirely by any means.

Do you not think that my theory has any validity, Wwmk2?

MaizieD

Do you not think that my theory has any validity, Wwmk2?

Oh sorry I didn’t see that nipping in an out to the garden etc.

Yes!!

That is exactly what I’m getting at! And frankly find it bloody scary.

And I think it is exacerbated by Ukraine.

MaizieD

Dickens

Galaxy

The left have on the whole embraced identity politics and completely lost touch with those they purport to want to help. The idea of social class/poverty is not a regular feature of the discourse. They treat a large part of the electorate with disdain. They are losing many people like me who have been centre left all our lives.

You make a good point Galaxy.

I'm sorry, but if Galaxy's point is 'good', how come Comrade Corbyn's 'for the many not the few' turned off Labour voters in large numbers? It was hardly 'disdainful' of most of the electorate.

(I realise this isn't really the right thread for this)

I'm sorry, but if Galaxy's point is 'good', how come Comrade Corbyn's 'for the many not the few' turned off Labour voters in large numbers? It was hardly 'disdainful' of most of the electorate.

I think voters believed the many were those on benefits who had chosen to 'live off the State'. And immigrants. So "hard-working families" (to borrow from the Tories) didn't believe he meant them.

And even if he did, they were led to believe he'd bankrupt the country.

That was the impression I got.

As well as being weak on defence Dickens
Remember him saying in Parliament that we should send evidence of the Salisbury poisoning to the Russians as they had asked for it?
Any PM also has to be prepared for any nuclear pushing the button, awful as it would be and he wouldn’t commit to it.
He was friendly with hamas and hezbollah and the IRA and other groups of that ilk.
So many reasons why Labour voters refused to vote for him.

Oreo

As well as being weak on defence Dickens
Remember him saying in Parliament that we should send evidence of the Salisbury poisoning to the Russians as they had asked for it?
Any PM also has to be prepared for any nuclear pushing the button, awful as it would be and he wouldn’t commit to it.
He was friendly with hamas and hezbollah and the IRA and other groups of that ilk.
So many reasons why Labour voters refused to vote for him.

Yes, there were other reasons, you're right.

It didn't resonate with the public, the for the many not the few in the way it was meant to.

Oreo

As well as being weak on defence Dickens
Remember him saying in Parliament that we should send evidence of the Salisbury poisoning to the Russians as they had asked for it?
Any PM also has to be prepared for any nuclear pushing the button, awful as it would be and he wouldn’t commit to it.
He was friendly with hamas and hezbollah and the IRA and other groups of that ilk.
So many reasons why Labour voters refused to vote for him.

I wasn't intending this to turn into a discussion of Corbyn''s other weaknesses. I was just questioning why his economic policies, weren't appreciated by labour voters when, far from showing 'disdain' for them they were meant to help them.

Perhaps Dickens is right, perhaps 'socialist' economic policies are seen as helping only those on benefits (which actually includes many people *in work*).

It was pretty easy to demonise him as being a supporter of Russia too, despite Russia *not having been a a socialist state for 30+ years, because of the association of socialism with communism.

Are you joking? Do you think Corbyn was going to be a representative of the working class? He is utterly removed from their concerns. See Alan Johnsons comments on the night of Corbyns defeat.

Just an observation from here in France, (if anyone is interested), as I listen to TV discussions and also meet French people.
I've learned so many expressions for, "fed up with, had enough of, cheesed off with," etc that it's obvious to all that things have reached a head and that something needs to be done, fast.
France's Prime Minister, Gabriel Attal, was apparently taken aback by Macron's decision to dissolve parliament, but after going to ground on Sunday evening, came out guns blazing on tv last night with what needed to be done ...... mainly in terms of public services, rewarding work, improving spending power and reestablishing authority. Although I'm not in the UK to comment on the electoral campaign, it just seemed to me that the French narrative is somewhat different, namely that the past has happened, but now let's shut up moaning and swiftly move forward. The emphasis in just two days is on the future for the French people.
Of course, there exists disagreement between the parties, but the rancour and back biting seems less, and from what I notice, there are far fewer personal insults flying about. It's a matter of urgency, and no filly-falling about here in France, encouraged by Macron's own brutal decision, whereas I don't think the UK has got down to proper business yet, unless I've missed it?

Galaxy

Are you joking? Do you think Corbyn was going to be a representative of the working class? He is utterly removed from their concerns. See Alan Johnsons comments on the night of Corbyns defeat.

In principle, there is little wrong with a party declaring it wants to serve the interests of the many, rather than the few.

But it has to understand what those interests are - from their perspective rather than from their own ideological viewpoint. And I don't think Corbyn did, though I do think his concern was genuine.

The few were of course not going to sit idly by as mere spectators and their 'vested interests' would naturally use any mouthpiece or tactic to discourage the electorate from believing their interests would be served by this principle. This was IMO made easier through JC's lack of connection with those he purported to represent. I'm not going to bore on about his mistakes, but defence and the 'student-politics' of Momentum did not resonate with ordinary working-class people.

Thanks, Dickens 😃

Now let's get back on track (sorry for digression)

From Joseann's post

France's Prime Minister, Gabriel Attal, was apparently taken aback by Macron's decision to dissolve parliament, but after going to ground on Sunday evening, came out guns blazing on tv last night with what needed to be done ...... mainly in terms of public services, rewarding work, improving spending power and reestablishing authority.

This is the common theme that runs through all the countries which are tending to turn right, isn't it? Despite the thread title I don't think the UK is any different. I don't think we're turning left, I think what voters are desperate for is change and they are savvy enough to know that change is most likely to be made by an established political party than by a newcomer, so they're voting Labour despite its policies, not because of them.

But at the heart is the theme I keep returning to time after time. The current economic system which is the dominant orthodoxy in the EU and here in the UK is the very one that has created the conditions for this unhappiness (I was going to say 'discontent' but I think it makes it sound as though those calling for improvements are being petty and getting above themselves when they should really be contented with what they have).

The cliched old definition of madness applies here, 'doing the same thing over again and expecting it to have a different result'. Continuing on the same economic path isn't going to cure anything because it will go on sucking money upwards towards the already wealthy (as it is designed to do) and offer no solutions for the rest.

It depends what you call 'Far Right' doesn't it? People wanting control of their communities, protecting their own culture, being able to say 'a woman is a woman', questioning woke dogma - is that 'far right'?
And are we really in for a 'left wing' government with Starmer? Didn't 'left wing' used to be about the worker, the disadvantaged, the poor?
I may be missing something.

As a Labour Party member we are still concerned about the social welfare issues you allude to, we always have, but given the limitations we'll be working under a centrist approach.

I still think much of the French vote in the European elections is about protest and dissatisfaction with the cost of living and the misery caused by terrible weather events and poor harvests.
Politically there is a long history of flirting with the Le Pens and then not voting them into office.
France has robust social services, a good health system, education and transport systems and a far smaller gap between rich and poor than many countries.
There is poverty and problems with marginalised groups especially in the banlieues, the farmers are disgruntled and above all protest is a national characteristic. Have just seen Macron on the lunchtime news and he is certainly in fighting mode.
We shall see.

Siope

And we are, of course, not turning to the left. The current Labour Party is centrist at best, even centre-right.

Always thought that with this Labour Party

Allsorts

It’s frightening what’s happened in France. This is the way things are going in Europe, glad we are out. I’m afraid when you don’t listen to peoples concerns, in this case it’s migration, this is what happens. It horrible.
I don’t trust Labour, they are more blue now, but one thing will be the same as they will get in as people want a change after Brexit, Covid etc. they are a total disaster. Conservative need a strong leader, leaving D Day was not thinking things through but he apologised, he knows it’s over. Starmer would only bet on something if it was a one horse race as he doesn’t appear to know his left from his right. It’s taken almost wild horses for him to voice an opinion as he waits to see what is in fact working out so it’s a safe bet. It will be with a heavy heart that I go to the ballot box but my conscience would not let me vote for a man that was a staunch supporter of Cotbyn, he’s flaky.

👋👋👋👋👋

I was in one of the many groups counting the votes in my town next to Versailles and shocked to see the results.
Besoin d’Europe just scraped in with 1741 Réveiller l’Europe 1696 La Droite pour faire 1259.
I think and hope that it was a protest vote. People are hurting over the cost of living, 12% rise in gas prices and the Security Social (NHS) certain medical supplies are difficult to get hold of and there are medical deserts. Macron pushed through the retire age up from 62 to 64 which is unpopular. - There is another political group saying they would put it down to 60.

Maybe Macron had an inkling of what was going to happen with the far right, as he approved the bill to constitutionalize abortion as a 'guaranteed freedom‘. Whereas the Italians are now allowing anti-abortion groups access to women considering ending their pregnancies.

Tactical support of your Party in an election does not amount to staunch supporter, Starmer has never been that.

Speaking as a L Party member who turned out to support our Party in 2019 tho disagreeing with its current manifestation didn't mean I agreed with him. Locally we campaigned for our very good MP instead.

As soon as possible we elected a solid and sensible leader.

There is another point which we seem to overlook. A politician who never alters their policies even when social and economic conditions totally alter is not to be admired - there is no value in being stuck in the past. (which Corbyn was).

mokryna

I was in one of the many groups counting the votes in my town next to Versailles and shocked to see the results.
Besoin d’Europe just scraped in with 1741 Réveiller l’Europe 1696 La Droite pour faire 1259.
I think and hope that it was a protest vote. People are hurting over the cost of living, 12% rise in gas prices and the Security Social (NHS) certain medical supplies are difficult to get hold of and there are medical deserts. Macron pushed through the retire age up from 62 to 64 which is unpopular. - There is another political group saying they would put it down to 60.

Maybe Macron had an inkling of what was going to happen with the far right, as he approved the bill to constitutionalize abortion as a 'guaranteed freedom‘. Whereas the Italians are now allowing anti-abortion groups access to women considering ending their pregnancies.

Thank you, that's really interesting. and rather illusionary to think the right is going to better the welfare system...

Any extremist view is unpalatable to me. Right or Left they can and do all end in oppression. I don’t know what is happening to the inherently tolerant and moderate country we used to be. I only know I would like it back, the only way forward for ALL our citizens.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

As Galaxy correctly says, this is not any fake news type scare from one of the papers with some axe to grind (not that many folk actually read an actual paper these days!).

These were actual results, and it's a protest vote that has happened before, across Europe. We have the LibDems winning a by-election, and having a rally with "ready to govern" banners (haha), they have a surge to the right and TV cameras pointing at swastikas.

Macron's swift move to call a Gen Election is a reasonable move, relying on the French system, which De Gaulle designed to put maximum obstructions in place to thwart any Commies winning there, but the same mechanics are a logical barrier to the far-Right.

Because of their '2nd week run-off' system, an odious figure like Le Pen actually has to overcome a big majority of voters who would really prefer assorted opponents, but with options reduced to only two, generally have to overcome their actual preference and exercise the 'anybody but THEM' choice. Hence a moderate like Macron picks up a lot of votes he certainly wouldn't get in our system.

Macron's swift move to call a Gen Election is a reasonable move, relying on the French system, which De Gaulle designed to put maximum obstructions in place to thwart any Commies winning there, but the same mechanics are a logical barrier to the far-Right.
You've just reminded me, DrWatson, didn't Jacques Chirac do the very same thing and call for parliament to be dissolved? I need to check, but I think the Opposition won?