Two twelve year olds murder nineteen year old with machete

I’d take any other children away from their parents for a start. What sort of background would produce kids like this ? At 12 they are perfectly capable of knowing that what they did was wrong but no doubt they will get off with a telling off, 3 meals a day and a comfortable place to live.

The two perpetrators -acting as one seems to be a dynamic with these children who kill.
I have a “thing” a sort of gut instinct that is telling me that from a young age many children are left to their own devices, usually communicating with others on computers and barely any “family” type interaction. As they are quiet no one is overseeing what they are doing.

It doesn’t have to be neglect in the traditional sense, however from say age 11 up to 16, I think that adolescents need more not less supervision than a 6 year old which is contrary to what the kid or their parents naturally feel.
More watchfullness, more listening may be required.

Curtaintwitcher

These days there is so much exposure to violence...fictional in films and tv dramas.....real life on the news.
Sorry to say it yet again....but this is what happens when children have too much freedom, poor parenting ,no discipline and are not taught decent standards.
Is it any wonder that so many are dreading a Labour victory....when things are only going to get worse?

For Gods sake, lets leave Labour out of it.

This is heartbreaking for the family of that poor young man.

Something has gone terribly wrong.No doubt multifaceted and complex.

Very well said zakouma66

I’ve just been watching a politician being asked how they were going to tackle this problem. He was floundering. I don’t blame him.
How can governments police childcare in the home?
It’s down to the parents IMO.

nanaK54

Very well said zakouma66

Maybe Curtaintwitcher you could reflect on the actions of the government over 14 years in destroying systems aimed at supporting children living in backgrounds we know contribute to children committing unspeakable crimes

zakouma66

Curtaintwitcher

These days there is so much exposure to violence...fictional in films and tv dramas.....real life on the news.
Sorry to say it yet again....but this is what happens when children have too much freedom, poor parenting ,no discipline and are not taught decent standards.
Is it any wonder that so many are dreading a Labour victory....when things are only going to get worse?

For Gods sake, lets leave Labour out of it.

This is heartbreaking for the family of that poor young man.

Something has gone terribly wrong.No doubt multifaceted and complex.

For Gods sake, lets leave Labour out of it.

Not to mention the fact that this, and other atrocities committed by young teens, have all happened under a Tory government. But I would hesitate to lay the blame squarely at their door.

If only the 'solutions' were as simple as blaming one particular party though, eh?

I have just read about changes in the normal Court procedures to take into account the young ages of the defendants.It seems they needed to be treated gently so that they wouldn't be traumatised by the Judge etc wearing wigs.
They have viciously killed a young man!

I don’t think a wig would traumatise them. They would be more likely to poke fun and laugh at it.

I said upthread that this crime has nothing to do with which party is in power, and that anyway, the Conservatives have been in power since these boys were born. This unfortunately is a reflection of what is happening in today’s society. Violent films and games, poor parenting, too few police, knife crime, apparently easy availability of zombie knives and suchlike (whatever they are) and so on. There are a whole host of reasons why some children behave this way. I’d love to know more about what their teachers think about these convictions. I’ll bet a pound to a penny that they were serious troublemakers at school.

The so called ''law'' makes me vomit.

At 12 they're ''too young to be named'' but at 12, they knew what they were doing so they should be named and shamed and have their twisted mugs plastered all over the internet and I've no doubt they'll have their ID's changed for life and will be branded as ''vulnerable'' and have a slap on the wrist and a payout from the poor box.

I really wish I could change the law, those like the evil psychos wouldn't get away with it!

Mt61

Chestnut

I wrote this on another thread about knife crime:

Apparently it is perfectly legal to sell rambo knives, zombie knives and swords online.

In Luton a 17 year old boy bought 79 knives and swords and killed a man with a 15 inch hunting knife. Police said he had used his mother's ID to buy 39 hunting knives, 15 machetes and 12 swords, among other items, and get them delivered to his home.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz77g16pd95o

How is that even possible? These items should be illegal. And how could the same retailer deliver so many blades to the same person without querying it?

Even more shocking, the blades have all disappeared and no-one knows where they are. The world has gone mad.

Yep it has 😔

Correction. Someone knows where they are. That is a worrying factor for me that not only are these murderous weapons so freely available but that people are willing to hide or get rid of them to shield those responsible. Stop and search needs ramping up. Never mind those who bleat about it being in self-defence, anyone carrying a bladed weapon should have a mandatory 10 years in prison. At present there is no deterrent.

Dickens
If only the 'solutions' were as simple as blaming one particular party though, eh?

maddyone
This unfortunately is a reflection of what is happening in today’s society. Violent films and games, poor parenting, too few police, knife crime, apparently easy availability of zombie knives and suchlike (whatever they are) and so on. There are a whole host of reasons why some children behave this way. I’d love to know more about what their teachers think about these convictions. I’ll bet a pound to a penny that they were serious troublemakers at school.

Well put, I can’t add much to that, though their troublemaking might have been under the cover of subversive bullying.

Maybe they should put the Police database online for anyone to see, showing names, ages, details of crimes and dates of convictions and mugshots. Leave them up there indefinitely and that might just act as a deterrent, if criminals know they will be named and shamed for all to see.

Granmarderby10. You are so right. Why do people have children if they don’t want to spend time with them? We have many lazy, unintelligent people in this country. We need more policing, more stop and search as well as harsher sentencing. The soft approach clearly hasn’t worked.

An appalling crime, devastaing for the family.
The age , in England and Wales, for criminal responsibility, is 10. So they should be named.

I believe neither of these boys had previous convictions or cautions or record of trouble making, although whether that applied to school as well I don't know. They may be two of the many 'suffering school refusal' and there are no sanctions to make these pupils attend school. One of the boys was raised by his grandmother; where are his parents? The other boy, no details at present.
I am tired of hearing, the education system/society failed them; impossible when children do not attend school and parents/families do not support education. It is the families who fail because they cannot be bothered. My experience of running a home/school links team in the West Midlands years ago showed that although most parents are willing to work with the schools for their children there is a hard core that will resist any attempt at building a relationship because they simply do not care and deliberately reject any intrusion into their lives.

Sarnia

Mt61

Chestnut

I wrote this on another thread about knife crime:

Apparently it is perfectly legal to sell rambo knives, zombie knives and swords online.

In Luton a 17 year old boy bought 79 knives and swords and killed a man with a 15 inch hunting knife. Police said he had used his mother's ID to buy 39 hunting knives, 15 machetes and 12 swords, among other items, and get them delivered to his home.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz77g16pd95o

How is that even possible? These items should be illegal. And how could the same retailer deliver so many blades to the same person without querying it?

Even more shocking, the blades have all disappeared and no-one knows where they are. The world has gone mad.

Yep it has 😔

Correction. Someone knows where they are. That is a worrying factor for me that not only are these murderous weapons so freely available but that people are willing to hide or get rid of them to shield those responsible. Stop and search needs ramping up. Never mind those who bleat about it being in self-defence, anyone carrying a bladed weapon should have a mandatory 10 years in prison. At present there is no deterrent.

When I say 'no-one knows where they are' I mean the Police don't know where they are, because the boy who bought them has passed them on to other people. We're talking Samurai swords, zombie knives (those huge slashers with serrated edges) and machetes.

I'd say the most pressing priority is to ban these items completely, make it illegal to sell them, own them or carry them. What possible reason could there be to own one of those?

Come back Darwin, all is forgiven. There's been a remarkable dumbing down of the collective gene pool over the last couple of generations. Plus it's been made almost impossible to instil any discipline via schools in case they hurt or upset the little delicate flowers.

Ignorance (and by that I mean lack of any useful cerebral activity), lack of discipline, lack of respect - all passed down to these feral kids who wear their sins and their crimes like badges of honour.

My Grandad, bless every bone in his body, would always come back with the "put 'em in the army" retort - couldn't agree with him more.

In my lifetime there has been the erosion of many of the old laws and punishments that kept society safer. There were still horrific crimes, of course, but far less than there are now.
We need much stronger laws. Banning the sale of such items as those machetes would be a start.

I'd say the most pressing priority is to ban these items completely, make it illegal to sell them, own them or carry them. What possible reason could there be to own one of those

agreed Chestnut.

eazybee

I believe neither of these boys had previous convictions or cautions or record of trouble making, although whether that applied to school as well I don't know. They may be two of the many 'suffering school refusal' and there are no sanctions to make these pupils attend school. One of the boys was raised by his grandmother; where are his parents? The other boy, no details at present.
I am tired of hearing, the education system/society failed them; impossible when children do not attend school and parents/families do not support education. It is the families who fail because they cannot be bothered. My experience of running a home/school links team in the West Midlands years ago showed that although most parents are willing to work with the schools for their children there is a hard core that will resist any attempt at building a relationship because they simply do not care and deliberately reject any intrusion into their lives.

It's impossible to reach these children when the parents are like that. They bring themselves up playing violent computer games and watching violent movies. The effect of these on young developing minds must be dreadful. Some of the games and movies made now are just beyond awful, the level of violence is shocking. I don't watch them but I keep myself informed.

So the whole world of violent media is largely to blame for the way young people behave, coupled with drug gangs who bring the threat of violence into the real world, causing fear and anxiety. So everyone ends up carrying knives and being quite prepared to use them.

Wyllow3

*I'd say the most pressing priority is to ban these items completely, make it illegal to sell them, own them or carry them. What possible reason could there be to own one of those*

agreed Chestnut.

There has to be a 'starting point' in dealing with this - I believe, complex - problem, and this would be a darned good place to start the process.

What possible reason could there be to own one of those.

Either to 'display' - or use as a weapon. And it appears to be the latter 'reason' mostly.

So yes, ban the damned things from general sale, and criminalise their possession.

Of course, that's not the complete solution. But, where else to actually start?

I thought zombie knives were banned, but the description of what a zombie knife is meant that the knives were simply changed so they didn’t fit the description - something to do with writing on the blade, so now they’re made without writing on the blade so are not illegal.

Of course, that's not the complete solution. But, where else to actually start?

I agree Dickens we have to start somewhere. Sometimes it seems there's an air of 'it's an impossible to solve problem' so there's a reluctance to try anything. Making them and their supply illegal won't eliminate them entirely but it would decrease the numbers in circulation drastically in my opinion.