Two twelve year olds murder nineteen year old with machete

Goodness knows, its an incredibly complex subject and cannot be distilled down into sound bites like " String them up" or " Put them in the army"

The whole idea of parents and parenting seems to have been bypassed by some. I think a relentless push towards consumerism and the cult of the individual play a part. Having things, owning things, killing things on a screen are paramount.

The safety nets aren't there any more, nor is social mobility.

Chestnut

Sarnia

Mt61

Chestnut

I wrote this on another thread about knife crime:

Apparently it is perfectly legal to sell rambo knives, zombie knives and swords online.

In Luton a 17 year old boy bought 79 knives and swords and killed a man with a 15 inch hunting knife. Police said he had used his mother's ID to buy 39 hunting knives, 15 machetes and 12 swords, among other items, and get them delivered to his home.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz77g16pd95o

How is that even possible? These items should be illegal. And how could the same retailer deliver so many blades to the same person without querying it?

Even more shocking, the blades have all disappeared and no-one knows where they are. The world has gone mad.

Yep it has 😔

Correction. Someone knows where they are. That is a worrying factor for me that not only are these murderous weapons so freely available but that people are willing to hide or get rid of them to shield those responsible. Stop and search needs ramping up. Never mind those who bleat about it being in self-defence, anyone carrying a bladed weapon should have a mandatory 10 years in prison. At present there is no deterrent.

When I say 'no-one knows where they are' I mean the Police don't know where they are, because the boy who bought them has passed them on to other people. We're talking Samurai swords, zombie knives (those huge slashers with serrated edges) and machetes.

I'd say the most pressing priority is to ban these items completely, make it illegal to sell them, own them or carry them. What possible reason could there be to own one of those?

They carry these weapons as a form of street cred and a demand for respect. They video themselves waving these blades about. They are more concerned with being disrespected than injuring or murdering someone.
When the Police ramped up Stop & Search there was an outcry from the black community that black youths were being unfairly stopped and searched just because of their colour. So the Police backed down. Look at the reports on knife crime. It is predominately black youths stabbing black youths so of course they will be stopped.
I don't see an end to it. The media giants won't ban the sales of them, the Police don't seem to stop & search for fear of being termed racists and there is no deterrent to carrying them.

What an appalling post.

I also agree with Chestnut- a ban on machetes. Adults who need sharp implements for their work should have a licence, as do people who legally own fire arms.

Our youth justice system is damaged and overwhelmed. The evidence is clear, positive interventions into Early Years 0-5 has long term positive outcomes.
We need to rebuild youth work and family support, linked to what used to be called education welfare/the wag man/truant officer.
Too many children are permanently excluded, then left out of ordinary society. They’re vulnerable to sexual or community lines exploitation.
Community police and social work teams could be re-insisted

We need good preventive systems working together

maddyone
I to read this on a news link yesterday .
It is beyond words that 12 year olds behaved in this way !
It begs lots of questions ,
How did they get them ?
Why ?
Why did the parents not know anybody this ?
Or did they know ?!
What sort of backgrounds do they come from !
???
It’s frightening to think 12 year olds can act in this way & that poor young man that they attacked & killed , you can’t even begin to imagine 😢😢😢

zakouma66
‘appalling ‘
Due to the crime , I take it ?
Yes the crime is absolutely horrendously disgusting!

The boy sent pictures posing with the knife at 1.00am.Most kids are in bed at that time.

I think it is time that parents started to be being held responsible for their contribution to their childrens deviance.

Forget all these excuses about poverty deprivation etc etc. To use that as an excuse is to insult all those parents who despite the same handicaps bring up their children to be decent and law abiding.

I gather both these boys were already known to the police. The company that sold them the machete should also be prosecuted.

Agree, M0nica.

I know it’s unreal, but I’d like to see the parents in court for aiding and abetting - or similar, it might jolt some feckless adults into better parenting of the children they’re responsible for.

I think it’s been reported that grandma was looking after one of these boys Jaxjacky. Neighbours have said these two boys were feral, frightening those living nearby for the past 12 months. Quite shocking.

Can posters give references to reports they've read please when they give actual information?
It's difficult to get an idea of context.

The O/P. gives directions to the Guardian so we can start there, but there are actually 3 pages of "I've read that"or similar without a single reference to a source for details discussed on the case

M0nica

I think it is time that parents started to be being held responsible for their contribution to their childrens deviance.

Forget all these excuses about poverty deprivation etc etc. To use that as an excuse is to insult all those parents who despite the same handicaps bring up their children to be decent and law abiding.

I gather both these boys were already known to the police. The company that sold them the machete should also be prosecuted.

You cannot prosecute the company that sold the machete because it is perfectly legal. That is my point, it should be illegal to sell, carry or use these huge blades.

This company sells them by the shedload which is why this 17 year old managed to buy 79 knives and swords.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz77g16pd95o
That has shocked me more than anything, more even than the murders, because the outcome is unthinkable.

Try media, any form;
Newspapers online or in print, particularly the Express and Star;
BBC and other channel websites;
Television and radio news bulletins.
This is not a university essay where sources have to be cited.

Chestnut

Maybe they should put the Police database online for anyone to see, showing names, ages, details of crimes and dates of convictions and mugshots. Leave them up there indefinitely and that might just act as a deterrent, if criminals know they will be named and shamed for all to see.

If you have been to a court case where young violent offenders are on trail you would see that it’s a badge of honour.
There is no shame: why do you think so many boast about what they’ve done.

There’s only one way to turn this situation around: early intervention. But that was stopped 14 years ago.

Some years ago a young friend of mine went to prison for fraud. I visited her in Holloway. The only thing she learnt there was how she got caught and what not to do next time she attempted fraud.

It is obviously not legal to sell to 12 year olds, but it is legal to sell to adults, and who knows, these two boys may have got their blades from the 17 year old who bought 79 of them using his mum's identity.

The worst little scrote I know of at the moment lives in a £1.5 mil house. His parents have tried everything 😥

zakouma66

Goodness knows, its an incredibly complex subject and cannot be distilled down into sound bites like " String them up" or " Put them in the army"

The whole idea of parents and parenting seems to have been bypassed by some. I think a relentless push towards consumerism and the cult of the individual play a part. Having things, owning things, killing things on a screen are paramount.

The safety nets aren't there any more, nor is social mobility.

Yes sounded extreme saying, “string them up”,but I was really sad to hear such sad news! Parents need to be more responsible about what their kids get up to. Parents are probably more concerned what goes on in their own lives, children are left to watch all sorts of sex/violence.. no wonder kids are screwed up 😔

petra

The worst little scrote I know of at the moment lives in a £1.5 mil house. His parents have tried everything 😥

Whataboutery.

He told The Telegraph: “He was coming back at four o’clock in the morning. I thought why was a 12-year-old coming back at four o’clock in the morning?

“You could see he was carrying a knife. I told the police he was carrying and I told the social services he was carrying a knife.

“He was out every night of the week. He was in gangs. Gang members would be in that alley waiting for him.

“I don’t want him breaking into my house when I’m out. I barbed-wired it all. I screened the window.

“His friend was always with him. They were always together, pinching, night after night. Scum, that’s all he was.”

Another added: “I can’t believe that the force that was used would have come from someone so tiny. He was a thoroughly nasty piece of work.”

The boy, who is thought to have lived with his grandmother, is also said to have been a “horrible neighbour”.

chestnut it is not legal to sell a machete to a 12 year old boy. As with another case a few weeks ago, the checks on those buying these items are very lax. I would like to see one of the company's selling these items to children prosecuted.

As for where we can read about this case. it was in all the newspapers today and on theonline news services.

It maks no didfference whther the boy was beng brought up by a parents, grandparents or the couple down the road. If they were responsible for his care they were responsible for his behaviour .

eazybee

Try media, any form;
Newspapers online or in print, particularly the Express and Star;
BBC and other channel websites;
Television and radio news bulletins.
This is not a university essay where sources have to be cited.

One of the reasons I value Gransnet so very highly is that although we are Social Media, we are mostly very responsible Social Media

Specifically on "news and politics" it's reasonable to ask for sources so we can see where a POV or an alleged fact is coming from.

It's also sometimes the case people will say "I've read that....." and I have gone googling to absolutely no avail. so in the end I just don't believe that person.

We get some great discussions here, some funny, some contentious, but nothing wrong with references if people want to read a bit more.

I think perhaps some of us, in our fairly comfortable lives have lost touch with aspects of reality for some.

It goes without saying that this is totally wrong and a hideous crime.

Please don't say " virtue signalling" but I was helping out somewhere the other day and was genuinely shocked at the different social mores, I observed. I'm sorry if that makes me sound like a snob, but it was like entering another world. Bed times, school, meal times and so on are not as we remember them.

Should these boys be named?

Yes, I think so. Name and shame.
Then when they leave prison they’ll be given new identity anyway.

Part of me shouts yes! Urms but then I thought - if there are younger sibs or close young relatives who actually are not like that then the consequences for them?

Also those two offenders might gloat in the notoriety-dont give them the chance?