Even the Israeli army spokesman doesn't think it's possible to eliminate Hamas. So where does that lead Israel?

petra

Full story Re bank heists.
And, it’s not in the FT.

www.business-standard.com/world-news/amid-war-with-israel-bank-heists-have-become-the-latest-headache-for-gaza-124062000340_1.html

Thanks Petra. It's always good to have some facts.

No clean water, little food, nowhere to shelter except tents and it's currently in the 40's, barely any medical facilities, a shortage of cash to buy even what is available at prohibitive prices, no education for the children! The people of Gaza need a permanent ceasefire. FGS surely this has gone on long enough. There must be a way of getting the hostages released and having some sort of peace deal but both sides have to compromise. The hostages, those of them who are still alive will also be having a terrible time. TBH I don't think this war has achieved anything positive for Israel and the safety of it's citizens other than retribution and a reduction of Hamas fighters, whom I'm afraid will be replaced by Palestinians who can't see a future.

The future for Gazans will be better once hamas is no longer in power there.It’s been bad for them for a very long time in spite of all the money poured into the area and creamed off by hamas.
Palestinians there can also see what hamas has brought down on their heads and how little hamas cares about those citizens.
All the hostages could have been released and a ceasefire in place if hamas cared about Gaza.It doesn’t.
If there is rebuilding and a decent governing body for the future there’s no need for anyone to become a terrorist.

Hamas is willing to fight to the last Palestinian, Israel is willing to fight to the last Palestinian. Wake up Gaza, stop fighting, you can’t win this one.

So we should sympathise with Palestinians in Hamas they were
forced, forced to vote for Hamas ?

In the end both sides will have to compromise if on both sides talk, "river to the sea" and no peace ever to be had this way. But so many questions to overcome - what about boundaries and settlements for example.

I don't believe all Palestinians support Hamas, its devastating that many young turn to Hamas but if you were there, you wouldn't speak up.

Haaretz today asks "IDF Wants to Leave Gaza, but Netanyahu Has Other Ideas"
www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-06-21/ty-article/.premium/endless-war-not-total-victory-idf-wants-to-leave-gaza-but-netanyahu-has-other-ideas/00000190-368a-d8bc-abf7-b7ba30d00000

Anniebach

So we should sympathise with Palestinians in Hamas they were
forced, forced to vote for Hamas ?

The last time they were allowed to vote in proper elections was 2006 and they weren't forced to vote for Hamas but it was a different Hamas then. Hamas had a civil wing.

wiki
"How did Hamas win in 2006?"

The result was a victory for Hamas, contesting under the list name of Change and Reform, which received 44.45% of the vote and won 74 of the 132 seats, whilst the ruling Fatah received 41.43% of the vote and won 45 seats."

Hamas cannot win this war and they should give up the hostages and stop fighting. All they are doing is bringing despair, misery and suffering to the people in Gaza and it needs to stop. They care nothing for the Gazans and are immune to their misery, as they fight their ideological war. They started this latest episode on 07/10/23 and they have the capacity to end it. We on GN care more about the terrible suffering in Gaza and the about the ongoing suffering of the families whose family members are still captive in Gaza.

Huge numbers of Israelis have been demonstrating all week because they don't believe the current regime will bring peace or the return of hostages and want elections:

www.timesofisrael.com/thousands-rally-against-government-outside-netanyahus-caesarea-home/

Netanyahu says he will hold elections once the war with Gaza is over.

Netanyahu seems to be very old school in an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. Only it is more two eyes for an eye and a whole mouthful for a tooth. He sees that Hamas is out to destroy his country, no half measures - from the rivers to the sea so he is hitting back and trying to destroy them. Very ancient old world philosophy but without agreeing with it,I can understand what he means.

Netanyahu has held his position unsteadily as it relies on alliances after the last elections.

His war cabinet did include the more moderate Benny Ganz, but Ganz pulled out and has been replaced by some further to the right those who want to occupy the whole area.

It's not official policy by any means and as we've seen backing by the IDF is getting very tenuous.

The only hope for peace imo is for both the Israeli government and Palestine to agree to a two state solution. Hamas has made some noises about supporting this in the last few months but only if the borders are returned to the 1967 borders- that is, before Israeli settlements in Gaza and West Bank.

But its written aims also include "from the river to the sea"

It's so intractable, and causing divisions and anti-semitism round the world, and so hard to see where compromises might work. I know some are in favour of a military occupation by Israel to ensure Hamas cant build up war equipment again, but I think there is more chance of Palestinians finding a non Hamas voice if its done by international means.

nanna8

Netanyahu seems to be very old school in an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. Only it is more two eyes for an eye and a whole mouthful for a tooth. He sees that Hamas is out to destroy his country, no half measures - from the rivers to the sea so he is hitting back and trying to destroy them. Very ancient old world philosophy but without agreeing with it,I can understand what he means.

Netenyahu is the mouthpiece of the government, that won’t change until the war is over, international pressure is not shortening the war it is dragging it out. Hamas has no intention of peace unless Israel withdraws completely - that ain’t going to happen!.

So Netanyahu cabinet has moved further right,yet said on these threads the cabinet is far right !

Well if David is right, and he very well might be, I can see no hope for an end to all this.
I know the Israelis are fed up, they want their hostages home and many probably want an end to hostilities because I believe over 300 IDF soldiers have been killed. These are mainly the conscripts and as such, are very young. Israelis are seeing their young people killed and naturally don’t like it anymore than Palestinians like seeing their family of all ages killed.

Hamas: they don’t care!

They probably like it as it makes more martyrs. They think.

Many Palestinians are Hamas

Disagree, David, I dont think a peace can be brokered without international involvement. "Pressure" is the wrong word. Peace brokering has to involve neighbouring countries.

Palestine is also entirely dependent on international aid - there can be no future nor discussions of Statehood without international recognition.

Anniebach

Many Palestinians are Hamas

Yes Annie. Many are.
The hostages recently rescued by the IDF Special Forces were being kept in an apartment where a doctor lived with his family. He was apparently a member of Hamas.
The girl was also kept in an apartment with a member of Hamas. He was professional too, but I’ve forgotten his profession. The family members of these people were living in the apartment with them, so the families were Hamas.

Yes Maddy there was a video of the body of a female hostage
driven through streets surrounded by men cheering.

1972 Palestinian terrorists murdered the Israeli Olympic team,
I read on these threads it was the brutality of Israel , so surely
they knew what they were voting for when they voted for Hamas .

maddyone

Well if David is right, and he very well might be, I can see no hope for an end to all this.
I know the Israelis are fed up, they want their hostages home and many probably want an end to hostilities because I believe over 300 IDF soldiers have been killed. These are mainly the conscripts and as such, are very young. Israelis are seeing their young people killed and naturally don’t like it anymore than Palestinians like seeing their family of all ages killed.

Hamas: they don’t care!

They probably like it as it makes more martyrs. They think.

If it is true that is a very small casualty toll, I would have expected it to be much higher. Don’t believe they are conscripts either, its not been a cannon fodder war for Israel, conscripts would be used for backup roles, freeing the professionals for the fighting.

Reading reports from the last few days it looks like Hamas are throwing everything they have left at advancing Israeli troops. Because Israel has air and artillery support the end is inevitable the only uncertainly is how many more Palestinians die.

How the security of Gaza is going to be managed after the war is another matter.

I found more information on the both the doctor/hostages.

www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/artc-prominent-gaza-doctor-and-family-kept-3-israeli-hostages-hostages

Apparently locals knew they were Hamas but not about the hostages.

They wouldn’t admit they knew , perhaps they too are Hamas

There are no journalists in Gaza to tell us what’s going on, only journalists who are Palestians and possibly Hamas, or sympathetic to Hamas themselves. In any case, even if not Hamas, they would be too afraid of Hamas to write anything that Hamas did not approve of, so we are left not really knowing the truth. The IDF have allowed western journalists extremely limited reporting in Gaza, limited to seeing whatever the IDF wished them to see. I saw a battle between Hamas and the IDF. I think it might have been the BBC who were allowed to make very limited footage of this, unsurprisingly as they could have got in the crossfire. There was not a civilian anywhere, the building was deserted except for the soldiers. I’m sure some of you will have seen that footage a few months ago. Then there was some footage showing stashes of arms found in a hospital after a battle and many men stripped to their underwear kneeling in front of the building. The IDF said they were Hamas.
We are only allowed to know what the participants want us to know. When the hostages were rescued, we saw footage from the IDF. No journalists were there, hardly surprisingly, as it was a top secret mission.
I believe the information put out by the Israelis as I think there’s far more chance of that being nearer to the truth than anything Hamas say. The Palestinians either support Hamas, or are terrified of Hamas. Either way, they won’t do anything against Hamas.

I am not sure interference from distant countries is helping in any way beyond material aid. Perhaps they should mind their own business ?

There are different kinds of international interests.

The international interest - and funding - is very complex and will not end partly because Israel's geographic position in the area in terms of Iran, Syria, and complex relationships with Arab countries, put them on the front line.

Thousands of Palestinian would starve if there was not international aid for the most basic areas of life and the UN and other countries involved in supplying this for humanitarian reasons.

As far as I can see, both the IDF and Hamas put information out that is in their interests. The BBC is very careful what it puts out, using Verify and also always stating sources, but it's worth always a check as it does show the consequences of the war as far as possible for both Israeli and Palestinian citizens.

Yes I agree maddyone I do believe there are many Palestinians too frightened to speak up or act.

How many are frightened, how many supportive