Is this country morally bankrupt?

GrannyGravy13

valdali

I don't understand Granny Gravy 13' "apples & pears " comment. Ukrainian children v Gazan children, why state they are different? they are - different nationalities - but they AREN'T more or less deserving as small human beings, and in this context about taking orphans, its hard to interpret that comment as anything other than valueing Ukrainian children above those from Gaza.

It is not the children that are different, it’s the situation.

I bloody well give up 🤦‍♀️

I bloody well give up

Don't, GG.

I think most of us understood what you were saying.

I don't think politicians like to answer those kinds of direct questions, so their hesitation or refusal always damns them - as much as a wrong reply will.

As regards children leaving Gaza, some have been evacuated for medical treatment. However 11 children who are supported by a charity and need treatment have not been given permission to come to the UK
news.sky.com/story/uk-urged-to-admit-11-gaza-children-hurt-in-the-war-for-urgent-treatment-13147931
The US has taken children, Spain and Italy are treating children. Egyptian health services are over stretched treating casualties. Why aren't we helping?

Glorianny

As regards children leaving Gaza, some have been evacuated for medical treatment. However 11 children who are supported by a charity and need treatment have not been given permission to come to the UK
news.sky.com/story/uk-urged-to-admit-11-gaza-children-hurt-in-the-war-for-urgent-treatment-13147931
The US has taken children, Spain and Italy are treating children. Egyptian health services are over stretched treating casualties. Why aren't we helping?

Is anyone else going to comment?

Their stay in Britain would only be temporary, for the course of their treatment - it just needs the British government to sign it off, but they have not done so.

... and the funding is already in place.

Two of the children horrifically injured, they need the treatment they can't get in Gaza. The major surgery has already been carried out - multiple times for the girl.

They did not vote for Hamas.

Why the hesitation?

Freya5

Delila

Children should not be left orphaned in the crumbling ruins of a war-torn country. The world, this country, can do better.

Which country would you take them from, Yemen, Sudan, or is it just Gaza.

In answer to your question Freya, I repeat the comment you’ve quoted above. I think the world has a moral obligation to help orphaned children in such dire circumstances, and I include this country. Yes, there are enormous practical difficulties, but solutions can be found.

Where there’s a will there’s a way.

Havig read some responses on here then yes, we are morally bankrupt.

I think part of the problem with the central question of this thread is that 'morally bankrupt' is one of those 'on its knees' or 'off a cliff' phrases that means different things to different people and therefore obstructs rather than facilitates debate.

That is particularly true at a time like this, when people are trying hard to find ways to discredit politicians with whose party they disagree. So much of the election campaign has encouraged nit-picking over what 'working people' means and similar. It's a convenient way to distract people from the actual issues, as it results in people squabbling amongst themselves - often in an unedifying manner. Resorting to name-calling and sniping is not debating.

FWIW I think that of course orphaned children should be able to come here to join relatives, and I don't think that a policy that disallows that is defensible. I'd have to have a tighter definition of 'morally bankrupt' to comment on that though, and even with one I don't think abroad judgement like that can be applied to the UK as a whole.

No I do not believe our country is morally bankrupt. I don’t see gg13’ s apples and pears comment as racist.

This election is contributing to attempts to simplify complex problems by demanding one word answers “yes or no” the interviewer demands as some politician attempts to explain it really isn’t that straightforward.

Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon and swathes of Africa are full of children orphaned in wars.

No I do not believe our country is morally bankrupt. I don’t see gg13’ s apples and pears comment as racist.

I agree with both statements.

No, of course "this country" is not morally bankrupt. That suggestion is an insult to the many good people in this country who are generous with time, money and in spirit.

A Government Minister cannot give an answer at the moment as Parliament is dissolved.

Sadly I think our government is; and the media.

But at a local and individual level people are mostly decent and have integrity and kindness. But they are too nice to want to be in government or the media.

Luckygirl3

Sadly I think our government is; and the media.

But at a local and individual level people are mostly decent and have integrity and kindness. But they are too nice to want to be in government or the media.

Yes.

I have to say that over the past couple of weeks I have been quite upset at some of the things I've read on here (and I'm not usually a delicate flower), but I remind myself that this is not typical. Most people I know, whatever their political persuasion and voting intention, are, as you say, decent people with integrity and kindness.

Luckygirl3

Sadly I think our government is; and the media.

But at a local and individual level people are mostly decent and have integrity and kindness. But they are too nice to want to be in government or the media.

The next government will be no different, I dont see Starmer inviting orphans from Gaza or any other war zone to come to the UK.
I’m sure every individual will go through the normal
immigration process, Gaza is emotive but just one of the many conflicts where children suffer.

I think the real problem with Gaza and why it shows our country is morally bankrupt is that we see these children as some sort of threat. Basically people believe they will be radicalised and will cause some sort of terrorism in the UK. But what that proves is that our belief in our system is so frail, even orphaned children can threaten it. With no belief system, with no morality, with nothing strong enough to show the world what our values are, what else are we but morally bankrupt?

And I agree with David49 Starmer will not move to welcome children from Gaza should he form the next government.

Oh fgs.

Compared to Hamas very few of our politicians could be called morally bankrupt.

Orphaned children from Gaza are no more than a threat than orphaned children from Syria, Sudan, Ukraine or any other orphans.

I do question why there is not an outcry to bring them to the U.K. if they have relatives or not?

Callistemon213

Oh fgs.

Compared to Hamas very few of our politicians could be called morally bankrupt.

Why choose Hamas? Is that the only thing you think we should examine our actions against? That is in itself rather morally questionable.
Why not choose Italy? Italy is treating over 100 Gazan children in its hospitals.
Or France
They've treated over 1000 casualties in a hospital ship moored off the Gaza coast.
How's our standard of moral bankrupcy doing against them?

Callistemon213

Oh fgs.

Compared to Hamas very few of our politicians could be called morally bankrupt.

There are plenty on the right of the Tory party who privately are racist and homophobic, in the wider population it’s common too.

Very emotive blanket accusation *We see these children as some sort of threat*

I don’t see them as some sort of threat.
I do want to have children defined.
I do want to know what you propose should happen to those children who have no families claiming them. They would feel it a double disaster to have lost their parents and see others being claimed and them being abandoned.
What shall we do about those we see on the news who are being looked after by friends or relatives who are not in much better state to care for them and who would like to come with them? Shall we turn away the remaining familiar links of these children?
It just isn’t that easy and making a quick response which would inevitably be twisted would not help.
I don’t have the answers, but reading the accusations I have seen makes me wonder exactly who is morally bankrupt.

Glorianny

Callistemon213

Oh fgs.

Compared to Hamas very few of our politicians could be called morally bankrupt.

Why choose Hamas? Is that the only thing you think we should examine our actions against? That is in itself rather morally questionable.
Why not choose Italy? Italy is treating over 100 Gazan children in its hospitals.
Or France
They've treated over 1000 casualties in a hospital ship moored off the Gaza coast.
How's our standard of moral bankrupcy doing against them?

Just had a quick Google, the U.K. sent a fully equipped field hospital to Gaza in March this year.

The hospital ships are being coordinated by the UN, not individual nations.

Mollygo

Very emotive blanket accusation *We see these children as some sort of threat*

I don’t see them as some sort of threat.
I do want to have children defined.
I do want to know what you propose should happen to those children who have no families claiming them. They would feel it a double disaster to have lost their parents and see others being claimed and them being abandoned.
What shall we do about those we see on the news who are being looked after by friends or relatives who are not in much better state to care for them and who would like to come with them? Shall we turn away the remaining familiar links of these children?
It just isn’t that easy and making a quick response which would inevitably be twisted would not help.
I don’t have the answers, but reading the accusations I have seen makes me wonder exactly who is morally bankrupt.

Mollygo there are of course many questions to be sorted out about children and families who are suffering such hardships, however the basic question is "Should those children have the right to come to family in the UK?" and surely the answer is "Yes" even if conditions need to be sorted before they do.

As for the age. I would say up to 18, with a proviso that children able to understand the process are asked if they want to leave Gaza.

As we aren't even allowing orphaned children to come the issues of permitting extended family to come would seem to be irrelevant. And if it were possible the UK family here would already be claiming them.

As for accusations I haven't made any I have simply expressed my views on why the children of Gaza present such a problem.

Glorianny

Callistemon213

Oh fgs.

Compared to Hamas very few of our politicians could be called morally bankrupt.

Why choose Hamas? Is that the only thing you think we should examine our actions against? That is in itself rather morally questionable.
Why not choose Italy? Italy is treating over 100 Gazan children in its hospitals.
Or France
They've treated over 1000 casualties in a hospital ship moored off the Gaza coast.
How's our standard of moral bankrupcy doing against them?

Because the subject is children in Gaza?

Spot on Doodledog.

I'm not sure any country which broadly supports a liberal democracy can be categorised - one way or another - can it?

As you point out, being morally bankrupt means different things to different people anyway.

And whatever it means, the judgement surely can't be based on the Home Secretary's response to a question about orphaned children in Gaza?

However sensitive the subject matter - do politicians ever give direct answers to questions? It's dangerous ground for them to tread so they tippy-toe around it. They're particularly wary of answering any questions that require personal or emotional responses.

I believe Tony Blair was the master when it comes down to answering questions directly - the master in avoidance. When asked a direct question, he would waffle around the boundaries of the matter, and then plough into his own agenda on the subject.

It's a politician's survival technique and I think they all have it - have to learn it, to stay in the business of government.

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny

Callistemon213

Oh fgs.

Compared to Hamas very few of our politicians could be called morally bankrupt.

Why choose Hamas? Is that the only thing you think we should examine our actions against? That is in itself rather morally questionable.
Why not choose Italy? Italy is treating over 100 Gazan children in its hospitals.
Or France
They've treated over 1000 casualties in a hospital ship moored off the Gaza coast.
How's our standard of moral bankrupcy doing against them?

Just had a quick Google, the U.K. sent a fully equipped field hospital to Gaza in March this year.

The hospital ships are being coordinated by the UN, not individual nations.

The hospital ship was funded by UK-med a charitable organisation already active in Gaza.
The French shiip is a French warship and is using military helicopters to ferry patients to treatment.
www.politico.eu/article/palestine-conflict-israel-france-medical-treatment/

If the orphaned children can be identified and have actual family here then of course they should come here. How that can be achieved easily I do not know.

A close eye would need to be kept on their subsequent welfare.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

I have family experience of looked after children the safe guarding of these or any orphaned children must be paramount.

There are hours and hours of interviews with the prospective foster/adoptive parents. Multiple references , and interviews with employers and close family members, before the legal process can begin and the adults get to meet the child/ren.

It is not as simple as putting them on a plane to the U.K.

I would not like to see any short cuts taken which could leave any overseas orphans, wherever they come from in a situation which could be more detrimental than that they are already in.