Is this country morally bankrupt?

Are some posters being deliberately obtuse?

Children should not be left orphaned in the crumbling ruins of a war-torn country. The world, this country, can do better.

Whitewavemark2

There are 11000 orphaned children in Gaza. So if they were all lucky enough to have a family living elsewhere in the world their little lives would have some hope and happiness for the future.

Spread around the world this is such a tiny number. Even if incredibly all their relatives lived in the U.K. - those children would only represent about a weeks worth of asylum seekers coming to the U.K. on boats, with which this government appears entirely incapable of dealing. As it is their numbers would not represent one days worth of asylum seekers.

And as they are coming to live with an established family they will not need intervention by government agencies etc.

How do you propose getting these children out of Gaza whilst all borders are closed?

Hamas is in charge of the Health Ministry, as all news agencies state at the beginning of any item on Gaza. They will need to be part of the dialogue.

Orphans should always go with family where possible, how on earth are the aid agencies if and when they are allowed access to them going to find out who and where any living relatives are?

It’s no good talking sense GG. Some posters don’t want to know about the practicalities.

GrannyGravy13

Whitewavemark2

There are 11000 orphaned children in Gaza. So if they were all lucky enough to have a family living elsewhere in the world their little lives would have some hope and happiness for the future.

Spread around the world this is such a tiny number. Even if incredibly all their relatives lived in the U.K. - those children would only represent about a weeks worth of asylum seekers coming to the U.K. on boats, with which this government appears entirely incapable of dealing. As it is their numbers would not represent one days worth of asylum seekers.

And as they are coming to live with an established family they will not need intervention by government agencies etc.

How do you propose getting these children out of Gaza whilst all borders are closed?

Hamas is in charge of the Health Ministry, as all news agencies state at the beginning of any item on Gaza. They will need to be part of the dialogue.

Orphans should always go with family where possible, how on earth are the aid agencies if and when they are allowed access to them going to find out who and where any living relatives are?

Yes I absolutely recognise the difficulties.

But let me repeat

That was not the question.

The question if you need reminding was whether the U.K. is a morally bankrupt country.

I disagree - it isn’t, and then gave the example of why it isn’t. A British doctor who moved heaven and hell to get his nephew out of Gaza - so it can be done., and undoubtedly can be made easier for all these children if the will is there.

But i think the government certainly is morally bankrupt - I think very few will disagree with that.

Of course you know I will disagree with that.

Why ignore the statement in the OP and just answer the title?

Is the U.K. morally bankrupt ?

No but some people in the U.K. may be, and some of them might be MP’s.

This question was asked by the OP due to James Cleverly not giving an answer to.

should orphaned children in Gaza be allow to come to the U.K

A question he was not in a position to answer seven days before the GE.

The question asks whether the U.K. is a morally bankrupt country.

I think not.

I think not either and we are amongst the most tolerant and generous on earth.

The point is ' James Cleverley is in no position to answer that question at the moment, something he knows only too well. Making such a promise would be just empty words and he would be criticised for making meaningless promises.

Someone's opinion does not have to be a policy. Perhaps that's what is wrong with politics and politicians. Undoubtedly the moral answer must be "Yes, children should come here.". If there are then to be qualifications they can be added. The immorality is in refusing to answer, because it means the politician has no moral perspective on what should happen. This is very dangerous ground. Morality and humanity are the basis of our civilisation.

Mollygo

It’s too complex to do off the cuff, no matter how much we care.

Define children.
Where would the age cut off point be for acceptance as a “child”?
The age at which they can vote?
The age at which they have the right to take drugs?

Define ‘join with their families’.
Which families?
Would these families have to agree to take responsibility for the children until they’re old enough to leave home?

What about those children who do not have families over here, or do not have families willing to take them in, or whose families over here are already suffering from child poverty and would find it difficult to add to their already stretched circumstances.

What would you do with them?

How does shouting that these are children, or implying that only you care doesn’t help.
Maybe you are genuinely volunteering to take in these orphans yourself.

I think most of us supporting have them here, IF, they have family.

If they do not, then sadly we cannot accommodate them.

If they do have family here and are under 18 years old, of course some way should be found to have them here.

Glorianny

Someone's opinion does not have to be a policy. Perhaps that's what is wrong with politics and politicians. Undoubtedly the moral answer must be "Yes, children should come here.". If there are then to be qualifications they can be added. The immorality is in refusing to answer, because it means the politician has no moral perspective on what should happen. This is very dangerous ground. Morality and humanity are the basis of our civilisation.

Come on, you would be the first to criticise his answer (as you have) and twist his words. As you have.

Delila

Children should not be left orphaned in the crumbling ruins of a war-torn country. The world, this country, can do better.

Which country would you take them from, Yemen, Sudan, or is it just Gaza.

Germanshepherdsmum

Glorianny

Someone's opinion does not have to be a policy. Perhaps that's what is wrong with politics and politicians. Undoubtedly the moral answer must be "Yes, children should come here.". If there are then to be qualifications they can be added. The immorality is in refusing to answer, because it means the politician has no moral perspective on what should happen. This is very dangerous ground. Morality and humanity are the basis of our civilisation.

Come on, you would be the first to criticise his answer (as you have) and twist his words. As you have.

I'd actually have more respect for him if he had said a straight off "No". Do you disagree that the moral answer is "yes"?

I don't understand Granny Gravy 13' "apples & pears " comment. Ukrainian children v Gazan children, why state they are different? they are - different nationalities - but they AREN'T more or less deserving as small human beings, and in this context about taking orphans, its hard to interpret that comment as anything other than valueing Ukrainian children above those from Gaza.

The positions are so different, what is not to understand?

If it is so easy, why don't some of you hire a large vehicle, drive to Gaza and bring children back here? You could take supplies in at the same time.

This is what a friend's SIL has done in Ukraine. He drove a large vehicle over to Ukraine full of supplies and brought out traumatised women, children, some orphaned, and took them to Poland.
He plans to go again.

You really don’t understand do you Glorianny?

Cleverley was asked whether Palestinian children would be permitted to come here. Obviously, this could only happen at such time there was a means by which they could escape Gaza. He could have stated that proviso and then given the answer.

They are orphaned children with no family left in Gaza but family in other countries.

That is important to understand

He wasn’t in a position to give an answer. That is also important to understand.

Whitewavemark2

They are orphaned children with no family left in Gaza but family in other countries.

That is important to understand

So whichever country the relatives are in might come forward to plead with Hamas for some help to allow charities to bring them out?
There are many rich countries in that area too well able to offer sanctuary.

I'm sure GOSH would be more than willing to take badly injured children if they have the capacity.

valdali

I don't understand Granny Gravy 13' "apples & pears " comment. Ukrainian children v Gazan children, why state they are different? they are - different nationalities - but they AREN'T more or less deserving as small human beings, and in this context about taking orphans, its hard to interpret that comment as anything other than valueing Ukrainian children above those from Gaza.

It is not the children that are different, it’s the situation.

I bloody well give up 🤦‍♀️

"You are giving an emotional response to a very complex situation. It cannot be compared with, for instance, Ukraine. The children are citizens of another nation in whose affairs we interfere at our peril."

Whilst I agree it is a complex situation, I'm curious to know in what context Ukrainian children are not citizens of another nation while the orphans of Gaza are?

I also think that pressure can be so easily put on by other countries, but in truth it is GOCAT who oversees the movement of Gaza citizens.

But there has already been some children who have left for medical treatment through the Rafah crossing. Israel, Egypt the UN and USA . arranged it. Hamas has no say in the matter.

So this can be done.

James Cleverly could have simply said that as he was no longer a member of government, he is in no position to give a definitive answer, but that he hope there would be some help for the children, and that we, as a country would take some part in helping them. Simple really.

Apart from anything else, these traumatised and terrified children are ripe recruits for the next generation of terrorists, so it is in everyone's interests to help them.

Actually, knowing that whatever he said would be twisted to suit the ends of the listeners, he was probably wise not to offer anything. In the same way that our local Labour candidate could not give me a decisive answer about what KS will do with to the asylum seekers housed on the Bibby Stockholm barge if Labour win the election.