Did anyone else spot this about Reform?

The thing that one is scared of might happen or might not happen depending on the way the government of the day handles it. It is not a fact until it happens.

Chestnut

Well I guess there is always scaremongering, and whether or not it is founded depends on the government of the day and how they handle things. We now have 'scaremongering' about the number of migrants entering the country with Labour in control. It's a genuine fear of where this could lead, just like Brexit was a genuine fear with the remain campaigners.

Some people feared what Brexit would bring and now some people fear what uncontrolled immigration will bring.

I don’t follow the logic here. Whether scaremongering is founded depends on whether experience proves that there was fact/truth/logic in the issue the scaremongering is about, surely?

maybee70 I agree with all your posts. Your argument is sound.

But Brexit was about immigration wasn’t it. And what has it achieved. Not only that but we are no longer in the Dublin agreement so can no longer return people to France ( another thing we warned about).

Well I guess there is always scaremongering, and whether or not it is founded depends on the government of the day and how they handle things. We now have 'scaremongering' about the number of migrants entering the country with Labour in control. It's a genuine fear of where this could lead, just like Brexit was a genuine fear with the remain campaigners.

Some people feared what Brexit would bring and now some people fear what uncontrolled immigration will bring.

The things that happened post referendum were things that the remain campaign warned about though. And were dismissed as scaremongering.

MayBee70

But, according to Farage, Brexit was supposed to be the solution to controlling our borders. What happened to that? Surely he wasn’t lying??

Farage got Brexit across the line but was not responsible for anything that happened afterwards. That was all down to the Tories mismanagement, along with everything else as well. It wasn't Brexit that lost control of our borders it was the Tories.

Shock horror, I think it entirely likely that Farage and his leave campaigners lied - again and again.

The leave campaign was won by lies, cheating and foreign interference.

They celebrated in the Kremlin when Farage and his fellow "useful idiots" did their bidding.

But, according to Farage, Brexit was supposed to be the solution to controlling our borders. What happened to that? Surely he wasn’t lying??

MayBee70

The government do not need pressure putting on them. They are well aware of the problems they face as are those of us that support them. It’s just that they are tacking the problem without ( as I’ve said before) dehumanising people and blaming immigrants/migrants/refugees etc for every problem faced by this country. You only have to look at Farages referendum poster to see that he uses refugees as a means of garnering votes from those people that are racist.

As far as I know the population has increased by 5 million since the Tories came in, so it's quite reasonable to assume this is putting huge pressure on housing, hospitals, schools, roads, in fact everything. We are a very small country and that is a huge number in 14 years.

Of course it's not right to blame the immigrants themselves, it's the government who are to blame for not controlling our borders. Nevertheless we still have another 5 million to provide for and how far can our taxes stretch? How can we ever build enough homes for all the people you want to help when we haven't got enough at the moment?

Well, if I think they need pressure put on them I’ll do so as a party member. I won’t rely on a regurgitated BNP/UKIP/Reform undemocratic limited company to do it for me.

I beg to differ, MayBee. They do need pressure to be applied. Going for the smugglers will never be a complete answer. The Conservatives were doing that with some success, but it will never be an answer in itself. The Conservatives also engaged with France about the problem and paid them Lord knows how much, only for the gendarmes to look the other way when boats were launched. Playing the Human Rights card, let’s be kind to illegal immigrants, is Labour’s way forward. If we think things are bad now, you won’t have to wait long to see them get a whole lot worse.

The government do not need pressure putting on them. They are well aware of the problems they face as are those of us that support them. It’s just that they are tacking the problem without ( as I’ve said before) dehumanising people and blaming immigrants/migrants/refugees etc for every problem faced by this country. You only have to look at Farages referendum poster to see that he uses refugees as a means of garnering votes from those people that are racist.

MayBee70 You need to remember that the other parties have been going for several decades or in some cases centuries! They have an established system and lots of people to run the administration. Reform has been going for only five years and has very few people to do the admin. I heard Farage saying on one of the pre-election interviews that they employed a company to check out the candidates and they failed to do so. Maybe that was politically motivated, who knows. As far as I know the party throws the bad apples out as soon as they can, but it must be hard to keep track of everything everyone has ever said. Don't forget the other parties make huge bloopers too.

As I said, I don't vote Reform but I believe in giving them a chance to get their act together. There are so many left wing parties it must be like swimming upstream. I also want them to apply pressure on the government regarding immigration levels,

Well, for one thing, most other parties, when hearing some of the racist things they’ve said over the years, wouldn’t accept them.

MayBee70

Chestnut

Again, I have sympathy for Reform being such a new party. Even the Greens have been around 34 years, plenty of time to organise themselves. Reform is not yet a functioning party, needs to get their act together, expel the racists and loons and get their structure and finances in place. Creating a new party must be very challenging, especially when a lot of homeless, unpleasant loons are trying to jump on board (as we have seen).

So why ( using my best Caroline Aherne voice…) do you think Reform attracts racists and loons in the first place?

Maybe these people feel they stand a better chance of entering politics with Reform, and so attach themselves. There is only BNP which is hard right and maybe they don't fancy that. That's all I can think of.

MayBee70

Chestnut

Again, I have sympathy for Reform being such a new party. Even the Greens have been around 34 years, plenty of time to organise themselves. Reform is not yet a functioning party, needs to get their act together, expel the racists and loons and get their structure and finances in place. Creating a new party must be very challenging, especially when a lot of homeless, unpleasant loons are trying to jump on board (as we have seen).

So why ( using my best Caroline Aherne voice…) do you think Reform attracts racists and loons in the first place?

Exactly

Chestnut

Again, I have sympathy for Reform being such a new party. Even the Greens have been around 34 years, plenty of time to organise themselves. Reform is not yet a functioning party, needs to get their act together, expel the racists and loons and get their structure and finances in place. Creating a new party must be very challenging, especially when a lot of homeless, unpleasant loons are trying to jump on board (as we have seen).

So why ( using my best Caroline Aherne voice…) do you think Reform attracts racists and loons in the first place?

Wyllow3

Merion

Trouble at Reform HQ. Farage has replaced Habib as deputy leader and put Tice in his place - which makes sense as Tice won a seat and Habib didn't - but he isn't happy:

I have just been informed by Nigel Farage that Richard Tice is taking over as deputy leader of the party. Consequently I no longer hold that position.

I am considering my position more generally in light of this change.

I have long held concerns about the control of the party and the decision making processes.

I will reflect on all of this.

This is what happens when a political party has no democractic process, no constitution, no voting rights. It's just a company with shareholders. Habib has none and Farage holds the majority with the others held by Tice, Oakden and A'zami. They can't outvote him. He can do what he likes.

He was paraded and heralded and praised at the big show as a keynote speaker - perhaps partly to show multiculturalism - but gets dropped when not convenient and suddenly questions the very basis of the whole endeavour with his experience in business?

Because of Reforms structure - Ltd Company with only a couple of officers, the ability to sue the company will be relatively easy.

Merion

Trouble at Reform HQ. Farage has replaced Habib as deputy leader and put Tice in his place - which makes sense as Tice won a seat and Habib didn't - but he isn't happy:

I have just been informed by Nigel Farage that Richard Tice is taking over as deputy leader of the party. Consequently I no longer hold that position.

I am considering my position more generally in light of this change.

I have long held concerns about the control of the party and the decision making processes.

I will reflect on all of this.

This is what happens when a political party has no democractic process, no constitution, no voting rights. It's just a company with shareholders. Habib has none and Farage holds the majority with the others held by Tice, Oakden and A'zami. They can't outvote him. He can do what he likes.

He was paraded and heralded and praised at the big show as a keynote speaker - perhaps partly to show multiculturalism - but gets dropped when not convenient and suddenly questions the very basis of the whole endeavour with his experience in business?

Again, I have sympathy for Reform being such a new party. Even the Greens have been around 34 years, plenty of time to organise themselves. Reform is not yet a functioning party, needs to get their act together, expel the racists and loons and get their structure and finances in place. Creating a new party must be very challenging, especially when a lot of homeless, unpleasant loons are trying to jump on board (as we have seen).

Hasn’t Tice put a lot of money into the company? Is Habib now only disgruntled because he has been ousted? What was he ok with the system in place before? I know he says he had concerns anyway but why be in a party/company that you know isn’t democratic in any way?

Trouble at Reform HQ. Farage has replaced Habib as deputy leader and put Tice in his place - which makes sense as Tice won a seat and Habib didn't - but he isn't happy:

I have just been informed by Nigel Farage that Richard Tice is taking over as deputy leader of the party. Consequently I no longer hold that position.

I am considering my position more generally in light of this change.

I have long held concerns about the control of the party and the decision making processes.

I will reflect on all of this.

This is what happens when a political party has no democractic process, no constitution, no voting rights. It's just a company with shareholders. Habib has none and Farage holds the majority with the others held by Tice, Oakden and A'zami. They can't outvote him. He can do what he likes.

No problem Chestnut.

I don’t think we know why people vote Reform if we didn’t vote for them NotSpaghetti. I suspect you’re right in that it was a protest vote, but if voters wanted to protest I’d have thought that they would have voted Labour or Lib/Dem. I do think that immigration was probably a major factor. I not accusing anyone of racism, just saying what I think may have been a factor.

maddyone
I suppose we don't know why 14% of those who voted chose to support Reform. Maybe they were voters who, like the Brexit vote, wanted to give the incumbent party a bashing?

I confess I wanted to give the Tory party under Cameron a bashing too and know that some of the post-Brexit analysis showed that this was a substantial part of the Brexit vote.

Maybe that's what we are seeing here?

MaizieD's chart does show though how "Reform voters" as a group tend to feel about different issues and they are broadly to the right of the Conservative voters - so perhaps anger about the government is too simplistic.