Transwomen take all three medals in 'women's' cycling championship.

Lisa Nandy has always believed TWAW, there is readily available footage of her saying that Male rapists should be accommodated in female prisons, and their crimes recorded as female. She treated those raising concerns with disdain. I have never been able to take anything she says (on any subject) seriously since.

Iam64

*in her interview with The House magazine, Ms Nandy said it was the right approach for decisions to be made by individual sports. ‘I think we ought to respect the fact they’re far more expert in making those decisions and judgements than we are’. …….. but I think most have come to the conclusion that - although they want to be as inclusive as possible - biology does matter when it comes to sport. And that it’s impossible to balance the requirement of fairness without ensuring they take biology into account. I think that’s broadly sensible’. *
(from todays daily mail)

Rosie makes an interesting suggestion

Nandy could have added that she, (as the representative of our government) thinks it’s wrong for males to compete in female sports . . . Unless she doesn’t?

UK ministers when RS was PM used provisions in the Scotland Act to block legislation making it easier for transgender people to self identify. A small step but in the right direction.

To be clear in all catagories, sport, refuges, prisons there is no difference between men and transwomen, they all belong to the category of men.

in her interview with The House magazine, Ms Nandy said it was the right approach for decisions to be made by individual sports. ‘I think we ought to respect the fact they’re far more expert in making those decisions and judgements than we are’. …….. but I think most have come to the conclusion that - although they want to be as inclusive as possible - biology does matter when it comes to sport. And that it’s impossible to balance the requirement of fairness without ensuring they take biology into account. I think that’s broadly sensible’.
(from todays daily mail)

Rosie makes an interesting suggestion

Like it! Rosie51. Let all males join female sport.
That way at least when the women lose, the cheats will lose too.
If they were able to race successfully aim male competitions, there would be no need to cheat by pretending.

Dickens

I've just had a thought. If it's accepted that TW who've been through male puberty can compete with women - then logic demands that all biological males should also be allowed to compete with them.

The only difference between a male who's been through male puberty and who subsequently identifies as a woman, and one who doesn't, is just that - inner identity... and what relevance logically does that have when you're partaking in physical sport?

I agree. It was what I was trying to say earlier.

If some 'special' males can compete in the female category isn't it discrimination against all the other males to exclude them?

May as well, they’re not going to accept any responsibility for stopping males cheating are they.

Mollygo

Mollygo Today @ 12:42

Passing the buck and making excuses wasn’t acceptable for Conservatives to do. It isn’t acceptable for Labour to do either.

Good. So can we leave party politics out of it?

Iam64

It’s not clear to me what Nandy is saying that differs from the official Labour line as expressed by `Starmer. On 11.03.24 he backed the ban on transgender athletes in female sports. The telegraph article is behind a pay wall. Lisa Nandy appears to say individual sports should decide.
On one level it’s simple to simpletons like me. Any individual who passed through puberty as a male is a male so far as biology strength etc concerned. The should compete in a trans category, not against women or girls

The should compete in a trans category, not against women or girls

But, of course, that will destroy the TWAW argument, because they would have to accept that TWATW - which they don't.

I've just had a thought. If it's accepted that TW who've been through male puberty can compete with women - then logic demands that all biological males should also be allowed to compete with them.

The only difference between a male who's been through male puberty and who subsequently identifies as a woman, and one who doesn't, is just that - inner identity... and what relevance logically does that have when you're partaking in physical sport?

Awkward, isn't it.

Mollygo Today @ 12:42

Passing the buck and making excuses wasn’t acceptable for Conservatives to do. It isn’t acceptable for Labour to do either.

Mollygo

Starmer Talked the talk-but does nothing about it. We’ve had 24 years of that sort of government and evidently it will continue.

Can you link us up to anything that Sunak, Johnson or any of the Tory cabinet did that wasn't 'talking the talk', please? And/or to any evidence that their lackadaisical approach will continue?

There is evidence that the Tories sat back and allowed drag queens into schools, allowed children to be given puberty blockers, NHS leaflets to talk about 'people who menstruate' and 'cervix havers', allow males onto female wards and into women's prisons, bowed to pressure from Stonewall to make people declare pronouns etc etc. They had 14 years to rein it all in, but they didn't. Now the new government has to deal with what is in front of it.

I would very much prefer to leave party politics out of the discussion, but if it keeps coming up the evidence is all there.

Smileless2012

Nandy is passing the buck Iam. Saying that individual sports should decide is not supporting a ban on trans women competing against biological women.

Labour needs to walk the walk and not just talk the talk.

Is that what she said? I said it, but I wasn't quoting LN. Have you got a link to something that shows what powers the government has in this regard? I am not certain, but I believe that it really is down to the sports authorities to make the rules, not the government.

What I do know is that the government has been in power for less than a month, and they have one hell of a hill to climb just to undo some of the mess left by the Tories. I have not changed my opinion on any of this, and I am as impatient as anyone else to see progress; but sniping about what the government has and hasn't done in a month is pointless - the last lot did nothing in 14 years - and when the government is being accused of inaction on something it can't control it is very frustrating. It is also likely to get in the way of making any progress. Moaning about LN instead of complaining to the sports bodies is just giving the TRAs more time to dig in further.

At first in sport if you had female bits you raced as a female. Then women women realised they could boast their Testosterone and develop muscles like a man so they changed the rule that you had to have female Testosterone level. This worked well till some men realised they could take drugs and reduce their Testosterone level to that of a female and race as a female. That would be OK apart from the fact they had grown up with male Testosterone levels and had therefore developed male muscles which gave them an advantage. The next rule change will probably be that you have to have female bits and female Testosterone. That will work for a time and then some young girls will start raising their Testosterone levels so they develop male muscles and reduce the Testosterone when they start to compete. There of course a few women born female who have naturally high Testosterone and can not compete as female. When it comes to sport defining what is male and female is not as easy as it looks.

Starmer Talked the talk-but does nothing about it. We’ve had 24 years of that sort of government and evidently it will continue.

Starmer on 11.03.24 backs ban on transgender athletes in female competition, ‘common sense has to prevail’.
Labour leader says he supports governing bodies’ actions to ban transgender women having previously refused to take a position on the issue’. (Telegraph).
Is Nandy condoning it.
I’m an old 70’s feminist. I loathe the violent aggressive men in frocks who threaten us in so many ways. I want to know more about Nandy’s position before I dismiss her.

Iam64

I’m not dodging this but - is it up to governments or individual sporting bodies? Genuine question. I don’t know enough about the legal framework. I’ll do some research and write to my new Labour MP

It may be up to individual sporting bodies rather than governments, but that shouldn’t stop individual governments standing up and saying that it is wrong to allow people whose male sex makes their bodies better equipped to succeed against females in female competitions.

To find that our government via Nandy is not only not condemning males taking female awards, but by refusing to do so, is condoning it is appalling, though not unexpected given Starmer’s earlier views. ,

Equally strange that males are allowed to take drugs to suppress the testosterone but athletes are not allowed to take drugs to enhance their testosterone.

If a male who declares he identifies as a woman is allowed to compete in the female category why should any male who wants to compete be barred? Why do they have to declare an 'inner identity' to qualify. Women's sport categories are there to give women a chance of success. Some sports, notably equestrian ones, have always been open category with men and women competing against each other. I wonder how many transwomen participate in these events.......

I’m not dodging this but - is it up to governments or individual sporting bodies? Genuine question. I don’t know enough about the legal framework. I’ll do some research and write to my new Labour MP

Nandy is passing the buck Iam. Saying that individual sports should decide is not supporting a ban on trans women competing against biological women.

Labour needs to walk the walk and not just talk the talk.

On other other hand a dainty transman who went through puberty as a female might have an unfair advantage in ice dancing, but not in weightlifting.

you cannot see male genitals through cycling shorts. Male and female wear special shorts which have chunky pads in the crotch area and they show as a `bump` even mine look like that

I too think it is outrageous that trans are allowed to compete with real women

Surely it should be for the governing body of each sport or competition to set the rules re whether transwomen are eligible to compete or not?

Obviously someone who is six foot seven and went through puberty as a male would have an unfair advantage in weightlifting, but perhaps not in ice dancing.

It’s not clear to me what Nandy is saying that differs from the official Labour line as expressed by `Starmer. On 11.03.24 he backed the ban on transgender athletes in female sports. The telegraph article is behind a pay wall. Lisa Nandy appears to say individual sports should decide.
On one level it’s simple to simpletons like me. Any individual who passed through puberty as a male is a male so far as biology strength etc concerned. The should compete in a trans category, not against women or girls

maddyone
it’s not just the horror of rape of female patients by intact TW, but the intimidation by TW of females in mental health wards, some of whom are there because of domestic abuse, where the TW flaunting their body parts and thrusting themselves on patients adds to the females’ trauma.

I hope we’ve moved on from one such event that I’m referring to, where the nursing staff were afraid to do anything and the females were told they were transphobic and threatened with removal from the hospital.

The legislation you mention could be used as a foundation for saying that males should not be taking female spaces and awards in sport.
But until those at the forefront of a country ie the government, are willing to stand up and support women instead of, as we saw today, supporting those TW intent in cheating, we are unlikely to stop the wrongdoing.