Rachel Reeves has announced that winter fuel payments will only be paid to those on Pension Credit.nsion Credit

Farzanah

From the Guardian 16/4/24
Nearly 1 million people aged over 66 in the U.K. are living in deprivation, according to government statistics, the highest numbers since comparable records began.
Labour which analysed figures from the DWP records , has vowed to be the party for pensioners………
Ho hum.

It’s coincidental that 850,000 pensioners who are entitled to receive pension credit haven’t claimed it, I guess.

Farzanah

From the Guardian 16/4/24
Nearly 1 million people aged over 66 in the U.K. are living in deprivation, according to government statistics, the highest numbers since comparable records began.
Labour which analysed figures from the DWP records , has vowed to be the party for pensioners………
Ho hum.

🤣🤣🤣

LizzieDrip

^I’m thinking that too plus our bus passes. Anything they can rob from us they will^

Primrose not long ago you were telling us about putting a ‘ring of steel’ around your finances, so that Labour couldn’t take any extra tax from you - tax that would contribute to the good of your country.

I seem to remember you considering splashing out on expensive holidays and new cars.

I wouldn’t have thought you’d be in need of a bus pass!

LizzieDrip funnily enough we were viewing new cars today. You will be pleased to know we used our bus passes to go on the Park and Ride Bus too! If we are entitled to bus passes then we are pleased to accept. Pretty much like I imagine you were pleased to accept free prescriptions, eye tests, winter fuel allowance etc.

I don’t think I mentioned “expensive holidays” but hopefully we will be taking more foreign holidays now so we don’t leave too much behind.

We worked very hard for what we have but realise that Labour and yourself don’t approve of that.

Urmstongran

Anyone else think that had Labour had gone into the election admitting they would pay the doctors 22% and the rest of the public sector over 5%, whilst removing the Winter Heating Allowance from millions of pensioners living just above poverty levels, would the election result would have been very different?

One month in Ms. Reeves. 59 to go…

We’re watching.

No. I think that most people realised that difficult decisions would have to be made. We were told that often enough. £22billion pounds unaccounted for plus all the money that went to cronies during Covid - only a fool would expect no pain after that.

There will be a budget in the Autumn. Let’s see what that brings before the cold weather hits.

I am not thrilled about this move, but I am very pleased about a lot of the other things the government has done in the short time it has been in power.

We are in the big group of pensoners with occupational pensions who will be able to pay for their fuel bills without worrying about losing the einter fuel allowance.

I have every sympathy for those just above PC level, this withdrawal should have been phased in, but, as with the tv license, their are plenty of us who can cope with it with minimum dsruption. So do not waste any time worrying over those millions of pensioners for whom this will not be a severe financial loss.

Personally I would get rid of all the bells and whistles pensioners get, free travel, prescriptions (you can get an annual season ticket, if you take lots of medications) Christmas bonus etc and simply increase the Pension Credit by a significant amount. The cost of not having all those people and computers issuing all these litle bits here and there, will be more than a recompense.

If bus companies choose they can give cheap travel to older people because it is good business, like the railways do.

Some on this forum would say that all spending brings a return to revenue, this has not been happening for many years, so any reference to economic theory is misplaced

That is because the money government has spent into the economy has mostly benefitted big businesses and the wealthy who have a) tax system which favours them b) use tax avoidance (legal) schemes which minimise the tax they pay c)don't spend much into the UK domestic economy, which is where the greatest amount of tax revenue will come from c) are global businesses like Amazon which don't pay UK tax on their UK generated profits (i.e money from domestic consumers which originated from state spending) and d) foreign businesses which take their profits and dividends out of the UK.

We need a complete overhaul of our tax system to keep more money out of the hands of the already wealthy and state spending targeted more to those who will keep it in the UK economy.

And don't forget that savers with the government and individual and institutional investors in government bonds are, in effect, returning money to the government.

Well the Tories gave us the Triple Lock and a big rise this year and the extra money for heating put into our accounts as well as the Winter Fuel Allowance and Rachel Thieves (good name that) and LIEbour (another apt name) took it away.

The triple lock on the state pension was introduced by the Coalition government.

Steve Webb was the brains behind the triple lock. He was a LibDem MP who served as Pensions Minister under the coalition government from 2010 to 2015.

If you were to look back at Hansard and the the history and debates regarding index-linking state pension and tax personal allowances you would see that it has been LibDems who have pushed for improvement.

It was Ed Davey who pushed to have the Labour Rooker-Wise amendment, which had been in force since 1977, further improved by triple-locking tax personal tax allowances so that they be raised by the higher of inflation or earnings instead of just inflation. There was a division and he lost to a Labour majority concerned at the cost of the proposed change but he tried.

Timeline

In 1977, Labour introduced index-linking the tax personal allowance so that it rose each year by the rate of inflation. The Labour MPs behind this were Jeff Rooker and Audrey Wise. The annual rise became known as the Rooker-Wise amendment.

In 1999, it was LibDem MP, Ed Davey who tried to improve RookerWise by proposing “triple-locking” the annual rise to the tax personal allowance.

In 2010, it was LibDem MP, Steve Webb whose idea it was to triple-lock state pension rises. The idea behind the triple lock was to bring up the value of the state pension. It had been on a downward spiral since 1980 after Tory Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher broke its link with earnings.

In 2021, it was Tory Chancellor Rishi Sunak who froze tax allowances, bringing more people on low incomes including pensioners into the tax net by fiscal drag aka tax by stealth. He used a Finance Bill to override legislation that has been in force for 44 years.

At Autumn Statement 2022, it was Tory Chancellor Jeremy Hunt who extended the freeze on tax personal allowances by a further two years which will continue to bring people on low incomes including pensioners into the tax net.

When people are giving giving silly nicknames to MPs and political parties, take a care to do some research and acknowledge that the Tories had been responsible for eroding the value of the state pension since Thatcher and for tax rises.

Generally, I don’t disagree with what Reeves has done - only the timing of what she has done. She has been left in a very difficult position by the previous government as the OBR has confirmed in its letter to the Treasury Select Committee dated 27 July 2024. It makes no sense to give a non-contributory benefit to everyone of pension age including billionaires but she should have given more notice so that people could budget for the change and considered how the change would affect those just below the rate at which Pension Credit can be claimed. My thoughts are along the lines of WWM2’s. There may be other measures in the Autumn Statement that will counteract this.

I agree with you about the "bells and whistles" MOnica (and I am somebody not much above the Pension Credit threshold, who will certainly notice the loss of WFA.

Currently, I pay income tax on my pensions but I also receive Housing Benefit and free dental care, glasses and prescriptions.

So I'm being assessed three times - once for income tax, once for Housing Benefit and again for free medical treatment. One hand is taking while another is giving back. It would be much simpler (and probably administratively cheaper) to raise the level of state pension and just tax me on my total income. It would be up to me how I spend my money.

How many billionaire pensioners are there in the UK? Enough that fiscal policy should be determined by their number?

Labour…….has vowed to be the party for pensioners…

They lied.

I've googled As of May this year the UK boasted a total of 165 billionaires. It doesn't tell me how many are pensioners over the age of 67 but I'd suspect not a great percentage, so not too much WFA being wasted on the underserving filthy rich.

When did they vow to be the party of pensioners?

Of course you are……🙄

www.facebook.com/reel/464769259315729
Kier Starmer. I can't find the whole interview just yet but the essence is there. Withdrawing the WFA from all pensioners except those on pension credit will give him a lot more to be sympathetic to 🙄

You know that as well as I do that I was making a point that the WFA is paid to the wealthiest pensioners as well as the poorest.

A report by More or Less for BBC Radio 4 revealed that 27 per cent of pensioners live in millionaire households. And this from Full Fact:

fullfact.org/economy/millionaire-pensioners/

A millionaire household doesn’t necessarily equate to a millionaire income as property wealth is included but I would argue that those people are not going to miss £200.

There is a host of graphs here which show the relative wealth of pensioners. The average weekly income for a pensioner couple in 2023 was £561. That was before the 8.1% rise in the state pension in April 2024 so it would be fair to say that number is now £600 per week. That is far above the Guaranteed Pension Credit for couples which is currently £332.95. Couples with an income of over £30K a year can afford to lose £200 or £300.

www.gov.uk/government/statistics/pensioners-incomes-financial-years-ending-1995-to-2023/pensioners-incomes-financial-years-ending-1995-to-2023

The worry is that single pensioners fare worse, especially women. The average weekly income for single pensioners in 2023 was £267, say now £288. Single or couple, we all need heat in winter.

Moreover, that average income conceals the fact that the average income of single female pensioners in 2023 was £27 per week lower than single male pensioners £259 compared to £286. Remove the WFA of £200 or £300 (say six months at £33 or £50 for the colder months) and you make surviving even harder for those people.

It’s why I have made the point elsewhere about women who have been underpaid state pension and may still be underpaid. The government had set aside 1.8 billion in 2022/23 to address this issue. Then there’s the 800,000 people who are eligible for Pension Credit but haven’t claimed it.

Maybe some good will come out of this by prompting more people to make sure they are being paid what they are entitled to especially widows who may not be receiving inherited pension entitlement and women who are entitled to Home Responsibility Protection for years when they stayed home to look after children.

Merion You know that as well as I do that I was making a point that the WFA is paid to the wealthiest pensioners as well as the poorest Was that directed at me as you don't make it clear by not naming to whom you are referring?

In my book you don't disregard the harm caused to poor pensioners who will be caught in the cutoff for pension credit and therefore WFA to avoid giving wealthier pensioners a benefit. Then again we're all different. I'd rather some who didn't need it benefitted rather than anyone who really did was denied.

I have said elsewhere that this sudden withdrawal of WFA within weeks of when cold weather will start to set in is indiscriminately cruel. It has not given time for those affected to budget adequately even assuming they have the means to do so. Surely my post just above yours makes it clear that I am concerned for those on low incomes. I cannot understand why Reeves has done this. It feels like a knee jerk response to the what the OBR revealed and aimed at quick and easy target, to punish older people for the sins of the last 14 years of government. She was clearly angry when she made her speech on Monday at what the previous government has left her to clear up but this demonstrates a lack of understanding on her part for how hard life is for some older people.

All I object to is the suddenness of the withdrawal.
It should have been paid this year to give time to get used to the idea and maybe start to make economies where possible for the winter after this.

Merion I don’t think politicians should display anger when presenting their policies - it’s unhealthy and anger can affect the liver and gallbladder. Yvette Cooper and Angela Rayner also appear as angry women. It’s not a good role model.
I am interested to see how Simon Case responds to Jeremy Hunt’s letter.

Maybe some good will come out of this by prompting more people to make sure they are being paid what they are entitled to especially widows who may not be receiving inherited pension entitlement and women who are entitled to Home Responsibility Protection for years when they stayed home to look after children.

Just to reinforce this point: Home Responsibilities Protection was paid from 6 April 1978 to 5 April 2010 if you received Child Benefit for a child aged under 16 or were a carer for a sick or disabled person and in receipt of Carer's Allowance.

It is possible to check on the Government Gateway to see if any years were added because of this in lieu of NI contributions, but this full statement of eligible years disappears after the State Pension pension is paid so it may be necessary to write in to the DWP to check if your pension calculation is correct.

Many women were persuaded (lied to) and paid the Married Women's Stamp too but then returned to work when children were at school, earning the right to a small occupational penion, so yes, older women on their own are more likely to be the group who might just miss out on anything and now lose the WFA too.

Even after pension contributions have been checked and all those eligible for Pension Credit have applied, there will still be many people who won't be eligible. After direct taxes and housing costs, I receive £13 a week more than the amount for guaranteed Pension Credit (which is less than the average for all single female pensioners). I've had my entitlement to Pension Credit checked a number of times and I'm just not eligible.

I don't think that many of you understand that it is not what you have in your savings account the government is bothering about, it is your income, i.e. how much money actually comes into your bank account weekly, monthly, yearly etc.

I filled in the form for the pension credit and I also filled in the box asking for my savings, which luckily is a decent amount, not over £25,000 but enough to supplement my quality of living, i.e. paying for gardeners, diy men and any other emergency situation that crops up. We did have a heck of a lot more when my late husband was here (he died a few years ago) as we had his state pension and his full private pension but he was ill for many years before he died and we had to buy stairlifts and every other medical item he needed as each time the NHS gave it to us, they asked for it back for someone else. We applied for Attendance Allowance and was turned down, after trying a few times and still being turned down he died. Our energy bills were over £600 per month during winter as he had to be kept warm. I tried to claim carers allowance but was told because I had a state pension I could not claim carers allowance as my state pension was a benefit.

After he died his state pension stopped and I received a portion of his private pension, which I now pay tax on bec ause I am over the threshold for benefits.

Since he died I have had a lot of expense, new house roof, garage roof, porch roof etc. due to the gales few years ago which cost me thousands of pounds and the insurance company refused to pay out stating it was wear and tear, gradually my savings are dwindling and with the cost of living as it is now, it is dwindling even faster especially with the cost of energy being higher.

Our buses have been taken off due to cuts so I have to pay for taxis so I only go out once a month and go for walks around the park at the end of my street. The cheapest taxi fare is over £20 return so I now buy everything online and have it delivered free. It even costs me £15 return to go to my GP's.

Anyway, back to the forms. I decided to fill in the form for benefits again but this time leaving out my £25,000 savings and I was still turned down for benefits.

So people, when all your savings have gone or if you do not have any savings, the government will still come after you because of your income be it a lot or just enough to stop you claiming benefits.

Governments are out to fleece the ones that are easy to track, pensioners, because they know where we live and they don't have to bother about the people who have no place to live or keep a check on benefit claiments once they have received benefits because we, the pensioners, have become the governments bank account, they can withdraw our money whenever they want to.

growstuff

Even after pension contributions have been checked and all those eligible for Pension Credit have applied, there will still be many people who won't be eligible. After direct taxes and housing costs, I receive £13 a week more than the amount for guaranteed Pension Credit (which is less than the average for all single female pensioners). I've had my entitlement to Pension Credit checked a number of times and I'm just not eligible.

My SisIL was only a few £ per annum over the limit.
The pension age couple next door received every benefit going and seemed to lead a luxurious lifestyle in comparison. A caravan, lovely clothes, a trip planned to New Zealand.

Doodledog

Urmstongran

Anyone else think that had Labour had gone into the election admitting they would pay the doctors 22% and the rest of the public sector over 5%, whilst removing the Winter Heating Allowance from millions of pensioners living just above poverty levels, would the election result would have been very different?

One month in Ms. Reeves. 59 to go…

We’re watching.

No. I think that most people realised that difficult decisions would have to be made. We were told that often enough. £22billion pounds unaccounted for plus all the money that went to cronies during Covid - only a fool would expect no pain after that.

There will be a budget in the Autumn. Let’s see what that brings before the cold weather hits.

I am not thrilled about this move, but I am very pleased about a lot of the other things the government has done in the short time it has been in power.

Such as, what. Nothing I can see, oh the junior Dr's. Stopped winter fuel allowance to pay for it though.

Freya5

Doodledog

Urmstongran

Anyone else think that had Labour had gone into the election admitting they would pay the doctors 22% and the rest of the public sector over 5%, whilst removing the Winter Heating Allowance from millions of pensioners living just above poverty levels, would the election result would have been very different?

One month in Ms. Reeves. 59 to go…

We’re watching.

No. I think that most people realised that difficult decisions would have to be made. We were told that often enough. £22billion pounds unaccounted for plus all the money that went to cronies during Covid - only a fool would expect no pain after that.

There will be a budget in the Autumn. Let’s see what that brings before the cold weather hits.

I am not thrilled about this move, but I am very pleased about a lot of the other things the government has done in the short time it has been in power.

Such as, what. Nothing I can see, oh the junior Dr's. Stopped winter fuel allowance to pay for it though.

It makes perfect sense.

We'll need all the doctors we can find when people are suffering from hypothermia next winter.