Riots in Southport

I’m affected by it. Not as a criminal, nor are any of my family criminals, but I have a son who is a barrister, though that’s really all private cases and self funded by the litigants, but I also know someone who is a judge in the family court and frequently mentions the lack of money in the court system. Obviously it’s good that these criminals have been dealt with quickly, I don’t think anyone would dispute that (and the reason they can be quickly identified is because they are already known and have been in the system previously) but the length of time other cases wait to be heard is far too long because the court system is backed up with a huge backlog of cases, partly arising out of Covid. During Covid cases could be heard via Zoom or other video type calls, these were cases such as my son deals with, in Employment, Contract and law relating to business. He appeared in court from his study. Criminal law requires the accused to appear in court as I understand it, and often, but not always, there is a jury (I don’t think a jury would have been used with these rioters) and so Covid pretty much closed down much of the criminal justice system. Nonetheless, the court system has been seriously deprived of funding and this has led to this huge backlog of cases.

It remains to be seen whether the new government will be prepared to put money where it is desperately needed in our criminal justice system. The speedy action with regard to these rioters suggests it can be done if there is a will to do it, but I have not heard any member of the new government say that they are committed to doing this and so I await with interest.

MayBee70

Callistemon213

It's sad that up to 7 years is the norm now.

Maybe the criminal justice system has been starved of money in the way that most things have been over the past 14 years?

Criminal Justice has been starved of money over the psst 14 years in just the same way as other public sector services.

Not only has it been starved of money, but there was the disastrous failure of the privatisation of the probation service, and its reversal. An unnecessary and expensive disaster .

The failure of the CJS just isn't as high profile as that of the NHS, Education and Social Care, as fewer people are directly affected by it.

Callistemon213

^many rioters have been arrested, brought to court, and sentenced all in about three days. Some of them are now in prison^

I find it quite amazing too, maddyone.

Obviously in more complicated cases, evidence has to be gathered, witnesses found and summoned to court but this all seems remarkably speedy.

Compare that with some of the recent cases published in Telford eg someone has been charged and waiting seven years for trial.

Where there's a will there's a way, a pity all our justice system can't be speeded up.

I agree with you, but the riots would have continued if all these rioters had been waiting up to seven years for sentencing, given that 70% of them already had previous convictions. Court officials are caught between the devil and the deep blue sea, aren’t they, they can’t win?

Callistemon213

It's sad that up to 7 years is the norm now.

Maybe the criminal justice system has been starved of money in the way that most things have been over the past 14 years?

It's sad that up to 7 years is the norm now.

They are following the same pattern of criminal justice they used in the 2011 riots which was successful in quelling the riots.

Exceptional circumstances call for exceptional action.

You have to view this outside of the norm.

many rioters have been arrested, brought to court, and sentenced all in about three days. Some of them are now in prison

I find it quite amazing too, maddyone.

Obviously in more complicated cases, evidence has to be gathered, witnesses found and summoned to court but this all seems remarkably speedy.

Compare that with some of the recent cases published in Telford eg someone has been charged and waiting seven years for trial.

Where there's a will there's a way, a pity all our justice system can't be speeded up.

You were agreeing with someone who was spreading false allegations at a time when we all have to be careful about what we say on social media. I don’t feel that my comment was aggressive in any way and I stand by what I say. The allegation of two tier policing is wrong. Even if you didn’t make the original allegation you were complicit by repeating it. And, as has been pointed out before, the case is ongoing and HQ have already removed a whole thread devoted to it.

Maybee don’t accuse me of anything at all, you are out of order. I was responding to another poster asking why I thought what I thought. I answered her politely.
You’re post was unnecessarily aggressive, so I’m asking you politely to refrain from being aggressive towards me.
If you dislike it, or me, please ask for this post to be deleted. I’m sure you, or someone else, will do that.

Another link:

www.kentonline.co.uk/dartford/news/labour-councillor-suspended-after-telling-counter-protest-311017/

Thank you for your balanced response to my post Doodledog.

Rosie51

growstuff perhaps you missed my earlier request. can you post links to where you read about the razor blades stuffed down train seats please? Try as I might all I can find is the blade at Dunton Green station.

This is one reference:

news.sky.com/story/kent-labour-councillor-ricky-jones-suspended-after-telling-walthamstow-protest-fascists-need-to-have-throats-cut-13193298

It's not the one I came across, which said something about the stickers having NF (presumably National Front) on them ... still looking.

MayBee70

maddyone

I think it growstuff because many rioters have been arrested, brought to court, and sentenced all in about three days. Some of them are now in prison. Good.
However the thugs who are said to have broken a police woman’s nose, and who ferociously attacked two other police officers, captured on video and seen by everyone, have yet to be charged, they have been bailed with no charges. Meanwhile two police officers are now under investigation, quite rightly, but that should not eliminate the charges which should be brought to the two thugs. Sadly I think it unlikely that they will be charged given the amount of time that has now passed. I’ll be very happy to be proved wrong.

You will be proved wrong and you are just trying to propagate the lie about two tier policing. We all need to think twice about things we put on social media in the current climate. As has been pointed out this is an ongoing case and HQ have already had to remove an entire thread devoted to it. Why try to reactivate it on another thread if it isn’t to try to undermine the government at a very difficult time?

Agreed, MayBee.

As has been pointed out there is a big difference between someone being charged, pleading guilty and getting processed immediately, and someone being bailed awaiting charge, or pleading not guilty. As you yourself say, these people are 'said to have' attacked a police officer. In the interests of justice both for the police officer and the accused, a case has to be built before they can be found guilty.

The alternative would be either to bring them to court with insufficient evidence and risk having them released as a result, or remanded in custody before even getting to trial at a time when there is little space in the system thanks to 14 years of cuts. Which would you prefer, maddie?

Sorry Rosie51 I did miss it - I've been off doing other things. I didn't save it, but I'll look for it.

maddyone

I think it growstuff because many rioters have been arrested, brought to court, and sentenced all in about three days. Some of them are now in prison. Good.
However the thugs who are said to have broken a police woman’s nose, and who ferociously attacked two other police officers, captured on video and seen by everyone, have yet to be charged, they have been bailed with no charges. Meanwhile two police officers are now under investigation, quite rightly, but that should not eliminate the charges which should be brought to the two thugs. Sadly I think it unlikely that they will be charged given the amount of time that has now passed. I’ll be very happy to be proved wrong.

You will be proved wrong and you are just trying to propagate the lie about two tier policing. We all need to think twice about things we put on social media in the current climate. As has been pointed out this is an ongoing case and HQ have already had to remove an entire thread devoted to it. Why try to reactivate it on another thread if it isn’t to try to undermine the government at a very difficult time?

I think it growstuff because many rioters have been arrested, brought to court, and sentenced all in about three days. Some of them are now in prison. Good.
However the thugs who are said to have broken a police woman’s nose, and who ferociously attacked two other police officers, captured on video and seen by everyone, have yet to be charged, they have been bailed with no charges. Meanwhile two police officers are now under investigation, quite rightly, but that should not eliminate the charges which should be brought to the two thugs. Sadly I think it unlikely that they will be charged given the amount of time that has now passed. I’ll be very happy to be proved wrong.

growstuff perhaps you missed my earlier request. can you post links to where you read about the razor blades stuffed down train seats please? Try as I might all I can find is the blade at Dunton Green station.

maddyone

Urmstongran

And will these tough sentences apply to the men who broke a police woman officer nose?

No. Thought not.

That’s exactly what I thought.

Why do you think that? It's pure speculation. The case is still being investigated.

Urmstongran

And will these tough sentences apply to the men who broke a police woman officer nose?

No. Thought not.

That’s exactly what I thought.

As I posted above, a thread on this specific issue yesterday was deleted

because of levels of speculation, commenting on an ongoing case, (and deletions of dodgy posts) all became OTT. And it included speculation that the young men would not get due process/punishment

It would be a shame for this thread to be closed down by going off topic on exactly the same points.

I read it as saying that the report of the female police officer involved in the incident at the airport is not linked to the incident in the photograph, so yes, you’re right.
One officer was identified as being investigated subsequently, and today I read that a second officer involved has also been arrested.
news.sky.com/story/second-police-officer-under-investigation-after-manchester-airport-incident-13193340
It’s hard to fathom out what has happened from the outside, we don’t know which of the police officers are being investigated, or even if the female officer is one of them.
Jumping to conclusions about this case seems premature to me, there’s obviously a lot that we don’t know.

Casdon

DamaskRose

Urmstongran

And will these tough sentences apply to the men who broke a police woman officer nose?

No. Thought not.

How on earth do you know that??!!

They won’t, because there being a woman police officer with a broken nose I’d fake news.
fullfact.org/online/manchester-airport-incident-female-police-officer/

The female police officer did get her nose broken.
The photo that was circulated was NOT this Police Officer.

I dont think that's what the article says is it? It says the photos used were false but further down includes a statement from the police saying a police woman had her nose broken. It isnt the clearest article I have ever read but I think that's what it is saying.

DamaskRose

Urmstongran

And will these tough sentences apply to the men who broke a police woman officer nose?

No. Thought not.

How on earth do you know that??!!

They won’t, because there being a woman police officer with a broken nose I’d fake news.
fullfact.org/online/manchester-airport-incident-female-police-officer/

Urmstongran

And will these tough sentences apply to the men who broke a police woman officer nose?

No. Thought not.

How on earth do you know that??!!