Immigrants and expats

Aveline

I don't agree that the current outburst of rioting is due to Brexit.
There was and remains no problem with all the various other nationalities that came here eg Polish, Chinese, Sikh, Indian, Slovakian, Bulgarian etc etc. Similarly no problem with Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist and most other religions and beliefs. The current riots seem to me to be very focused on Muslim people. Why?

Don't know. Why do you think?

These other nationalities and faiths somehow keep a lower profile?

Aveline

These other nationalities and faiths somehow keep a lower profile?

I'm not a psychologist, but I've been giving this a lot of thought lately, and these are what passes for my 'explanations'.

Islam asks its adherents to declare their faith in their clothing, and the more religious Muslims adhere to laws about food and prayer, so they stand out more in Western society than those whose religion or lack of one don't make them stand out. There are those who dislike difference of any kind. Maybe because they are unhappy with themselves and prefer people to be like them so they feel 'normal? Who knows? They can't pick on people who look like them, or who have the same accent, as their differences aren't immediately apparent, and on the whole the bullies aren't usually very bright, so they concentrate on hating those who are more obviously different. Like the kids who pick on the boy with glasses or ginger hair, or the fat girl with spots. Then they blame the victims for 'making them do it'. They have the gall to be/look/behave/dress differently from me, and I am NORMAL, honestly, I am, so 'they' can't be normal, and therefore it's ok to pick on 'them', and if you want to be thought normal you have to be on my side.

That's one reason, I think. Another is that Muslims are sometimes in communities of relatively recent immigrants, which are concentrated in poorer areas of the country. Even in rich cities, the new arrivals tend to live in the grottier areas. Those areas still house people 'left behind' when neighbours moved out to better-off suburbs and they can feel overwhelmed when the local shops no longer cater to them, or the customs of their own culture no longer prevail. Jellied eels and t shirts give way to kebabs and saris. Despite the fact that Muslims make up something like 6% of the population, in some areas they are in the majority, and that is the lived experience of the 'indigenous' people living amongst them.

Finally, there are people who just like having someone to look down on. Whether it's 'her next door' whose nets aren't white enough, or 'poor so and so' whose husband drinks, or the ones who 'aren't what they should be' for 'having to get married', those with tattoos or big TVs - there will always be some reason why some see other people as lesser. It's in their nature. Maybe it's just that nobody wants to be at the bottom of the pile - there is a hierarchy amongst prisoners, druggies and alcoholics - and maybe some people are just judgemental. I don't know, but I think that explains some of it too.

I'm sure there are other reasons-that-aren't-reasons-but-excuses (eg in This Is England, Combo hates Milky because he's from a Jamaican family whose culture is supportive and close, and he (Combo) is from a criminally dysfunctional English family). Individuals will have their individual prejudices, but mostly I think they are rooted in jealousy, fear of being 'at the bottom', a desperate need to be 'normal' and in the dominant group, and a more generally bullying personality. In most cases these prejudices are probably buried and kept below the surface, so when the likes of Tommy Robinson comes along with a slogan or confirmation of the prejudice it isn't challenged.

As I say, that is just my thoughts, and has no basis in anything other than my musings. I'm sure wiser people will be able to shoot it down, and that's fine. I have no idea about solutions, and they are the important thing, really.

Doodledog

Aveline

These other nationalities and faiths somehow keep a lower profile?

I'm not a psychologist, but I've been giving this a lot of thought lately, and these are what passes for my 'explanations'.

Islam asks its adherents to declare their faith in their clothing, and the more religious Muslims adhere to laws about food and prayer, so they stand out more in Western society than those whose religion or lack of one don't make them stand out. There are those who dislike difference of any kind. Maybe because they are unhappy with themselves and prefer people to be like them so they feel 'normal? Who knows? They can't pick on people who look like them, or who have the same accent, as their differences aren't immediately apparent, and on the whole the bullies aren't usually very bright, so they concentrate on hating those who are more obviously different. Like the kids who pick on the boy with glasses or ginger hair, or the fat girl with spots. Then they blame the victims for 'making them do it'. They have the gall to be/look/behave/dress differently from me, and I am NORMAL, honestly, I am, so 'they' can't be normal, and therefore it's ok to pick on 'them', and if you want to be thought normal you have to be on my side.

That's one reason, I think. Another is that Muslims are sometimes in communities of relatively recent immigrants, which are concentrated in poorer areas of the country. Even in rich cities, the new arrivals tend to live in the grottier areas. Those areas still house people 'left behind' when neighbours moved out to better-off suburbs and they can feel overwhelmed when the local shops no longer cater to them, or the customs of their own culture no longer prevail. Jellied eels and t shirts give way to kebabs and saris. Despite the fact that Muslims make up something like 6% of the population, in some areas they are in the majority, and that is the lived experience of the 'indigenous' people living amongst them.

Finally, there are people who just like having someone to look down on. Whether it's 'her next door' whose nets aren't white enough, or 'poor so and so' whose husband drinks, or the ones who 'aren't what they should be' for 'having to get married', those with tattoos or big TVs - there will always be some reason why some see other people as lesser. It's in their nature. Maybe it's just that nobody wants to be at the bottom of the pile - there is a hierarchy amongst prisoners, druggies and alcoholics - and maybe some people are just judgemental. I don't know, but I think that explains some of it too.

I'm sure there are other reasons-that-aren't-reasons-but-excuses (eg in This Is England, Combo hates Milky because he's from a Jamaican family whose culture is supportive and close, and he (Combo) is from a criminally dysfunctional English family). Individuals will have their individual prejudices, but mostly I think they are rooted in jealousy, fear of being 'at the bottom', a desperate need to be 'normal' and in the dominant group, and a more generally bullying personality. In most cases these prejudices are probably buried and kept below the surface, so when the likes of Tommy Robinson comes along with a slogan or confirmation of the prejudice it isn't challenged.

As I say, that is just my thoughts, and has no basis in anything other than my musings. I'm sure wiser people will be able to shoot it down, and that's fine. I have no idea about solutions, and they are the important thing, really.

And which university did you say you had done your degree in psychology at?

Oh wait, you say you are "no psychologist". Hmmmm. Still a lot of preachin.

I didn't say I 'did a degree' in psychology, as I didn't 'do' a psychology degree. You can 'Hmmmmm' as much as you like. I'm not preaching either. I'm trying to make sense of a terrifying situation.

What are your thoughts on Aveline's question?

Interesting response Doodledog.

Do you have anything to contribute biglouis?

Thank you growstuff. Maybe I should be flattered to be mistaken for a psychologist, but I'm really not, as I'm sure is obvious to the genuine article .

I would love to hear biglouis' response. Rubbishing other people's attempts to make sense of things is easy. Actually engaging is not.

It’s all getting to be a bit of a yawn now, isn’t bit ? Indigenous people need to be able to keep their culture but it seems it is under threat and that is what leads to unrest. I am talking about indigenous British people. It happened to the American Indians, it happened to the Australian aborigines and the native Fijians and now it is happening to the British. Still Yma o Hyd!

Eh?

stupid people have no idea that jesus in the quran
a messiah just
not the son of god
The Quran is the sacred scripture of Islam, and in it, more than ninety verses spread across fifteen chapters discuss Jesus.

That was really thoughtful and interesting, Doodledog, thank you.

nanna8

It’s all getting to be a bit of a yawn now, isn’t bit ? Indigenous people need to be able to keep their culture but it seems it is under threat and that is what leads to unrest. I am talking about indigenous British people. It happened to the American Indians, it happened to the Australian aborigines and the native Fijians and now it is happening to the British. Still Yma o Hyd!

nanna8 😁

They're all immigrants (or invaders) to the natives the British Isles!

varian

Mamie

As a migrant in France I have to disagree here. The research done by the wonderful British in Europe group, who worked so hard to preserve our rights after Brexit, found that a majority of us did not vote for Brexit and that younger working people in Europe far outnumbered retirees. Many of those in Spain who were surveyed and interviewed were later found to be second home owners.
There was a great deal of lazy journalism at the time which made the worry and uncertainty of Brexit far worse.
Frankly we don't need anymore stereotyping.

The article I quoted clearly stated that the majority of Brits in Spain voted Remain, so this is not about them.

It is about the curious mentality of those who lived in the EU at the time of the referendum, yet chose to limit their own freedom to do so.

I have lived abroad and I suppose, considered myself an expat, rather than an immigrant. This was in the 1970s. I suppose it was in part because we never regarded our stay there as permanent.

One of the British friends we made then has lived for most of his life abroad. Is he still an expat or would the folk around him regard him as an immigrant?

Is there actually any difference?

My French friends tend to say "elle est d'origine britannique" I have never been referred to as expatriée and I think of myself just as British living in France. I think the term "expat" was misused by programmes like A Place in the Sun during the height of the lifestyle migration boom and then picked up by other media. It developed negative connotations and in some quarters has become a term of mockery like boomer.
Sadly, the language around migrant / immigrant has become increasingly inflammatory and is undoubtedly used to stir up xenophobia and racism.

Thank you Doodledog for your thoughtful response to my question.
I'm just hoping for rain today to put an end to these pointless riots

^My French friends tend to say "elle est d'origine britannique" I have never been referred to as expatriée and I think of myself just as British living in France. I think the term "expat" was misused by programmes like A Place in the Sun during the height of the lifestyle migration boom and then picked up by other media. It developed negative connotations and in some quarters has become a term of mockery like boomer.
Sadly, the language around migrant / immigrant has become increasingly inflammatory and is undoubtedly used to stir up xenophobia and racism^.
I disagree Mamie because that was not my experience. I'm not sure if you worked in France, but I was certainly given the title salarié expatrié on legal documents. Also the term travailleur expatrié is commonly used. Even the noun, en tant qu'expatrié.
Amongst my friends, I am referred by my name (which coincidentally is very far from Anglo Saxon in its origin.).

* Sorry, the above quote from Mamie didn't become italicised for some reason, despite using ...... round it?

Actually, looking quickly at my old documents, the salarié expatrié title was given to my income earned outside France, (when I used to weekly commute), but the term still applies.

My opinion is that the dark side of internet has a lot to do with the rioting and the rioters are disillusioned with life . I wish I had an answer to stop the rioting but I haven’t .

Joseann

Actually, looking quickly at my old documents, the salarié expatrié title was given to my income earned outside France, (when I used to weekly commute), but the term still applies.

That kind of proves my point Joseann. I have worked in France, both for l'education nationale and running a gite business and didn't have that description on any contracts, but we are long-term permanent residents. My husband travelled the world as an IT consultant for years and spent a lot of time with expatriate Americans working for American companies in several European countries, including France and they were definitely expats.
I didn't know that some French companies use the term, but my understanding has always been that it in English it refers to temporary residents. Goes back to the days of overseas posts in The Raj I think!

Yes, I'd quite happily get rid of the term "expat" because it almost implies you want to have a foot in both countries. Fine to keep your identity, which you can never really lose anyway, but annoying when you very much want to be one of them in your new country. I needed to carry on working back in England for a while, though my primary residence, and main income, was in France. Complicated logistics.
It's interesting for the likes of us Mamie who can actually understand what it feels like for people the other way round and the hoops that have to be jumped through.

An interesting response from Doodledog which certainly didn't warrent some sarcasm about a psychology degree.

You certainly don't have to look far to see how the flames are fanned when man in mask and Muslim are used as if they were the same thing.

Joseann

Yes, I'd quite happily get rid of the term "expat" because it almost implies you want to have a foot in both countries. Fine to keep your identity, which you can never really lose anyway, but annoying when you very much want to be one of them in your new country. I needed to carry on working back in England for a while, though my primary residence, and main income, was in France. Complicated logistics.
It's interesting for the likes of us Mamie who can actually understand what it feels like for people the other way round and the hoops that have to be jumped through.

I think expat does imply that you do have a foot in both countries in regards to work. I will always be British in France, but I am not French and my son with Spanish nationality, a Spanish wife and Spanish children is still British to the Spanish, even if he supports Spain in football. I still identify closely with Britain and my family and friends are there. I still teach English and explain culture and customs to my students. I don't see it as choosing between one country or the other, I speak both languages and have the privelege of understanding both countries (apart from bits of the Olympic opening ceremony 😂).

apart from bits of the Olympic opening ceremony lol
Interestingly the weird bits are long buried in my mind, because Paris is now looking resplendent in all the different venues. All the wonderful locations are certainly showcasing the city of light love par excellence.

Farzanah

pascal30

Maybe it is something to do with 9/11 or the fact that a lot of terrorists in films and tv series are shown to be muslims.. It seems to be a quite deep rooted fear.. and I'm not sure how that can be changed even though the actual religion is based on peace..

By getting to know a few people of Muslim faith personally because I guess many who have this supposed “deep rooted fear” do not know a single one.

I completely agree Farzanah and I do belong to an Interfaith group which is why I say the religion is actually based on peace.. but judging by the riots a lot of people don't seem to understand that and have been fuelled by misrepresentations

Wyllow3

That was really thoughtful and interesting, Doodledog, thank you.

I second that!

Honestly Biglouis what a rude and childish response!