Teachers leaving the profession

A friend of ours resigned from teaching thirty years ago (Head of department, German) because of the bad behaviour of the pupils.

No teachers in my family, but I think all your points except probably number 3 are relevant here as well.

No different to many jobs nowadays though. Being a nurse, doctor, police officer, dentist, clergyman, bank clerk…

No jobs seem to be what they were. Not very enjoyable, full of stress, ‘can’t wait to retire’.

Sad state of affairs.

Teaching has never been up there with other professions. I went into teaching as a mature graduate and found it very hard indeed, although I also loved it.
What made it difficult for me was not the behaviour of the students though I worked in some very 'challenging' schools, but the lack of support from the other staff.
Even in departments the levels of bitchiness and sheer bullying were off the scale.
I really do think those who had gone straight to college and then back into the classroom had never really left the playground themselves.
For me the whole way teachers are trained needs a good shake up- they need to learn how to be supportive of each other and not competitive, especially when it comes to Ofsted and exam results.
I stuck it out and finally found work in a role that suited me away from other teachers!

The reality for my dgd was 60 in her science class. I have teachers in my family, they are superb science teachers and are beyond stressed for all those reasons nanna8.

None of my dgc will be teachers and schools will continue to employ the cheapest, inexperienced people who cannot get an alternative job and meanwhile the older time-served dedicated experienced teachers are actively looking for employment out of education. The new young teachers mostly only last a couple of years, if that

It’s awful, isn’t it ? What sometimes happens here is those teaching in the state schools move across to the private schools which have less of a discipline problem, mainly because difficult pupils are asked to leave. Then they wonder why private schools come out top in the exams etc. The thing with private schools is that there is a lot more parental input or even ‘interference’ which is another issue not helping the situation. If kids are naughty or not achieving- blame the teachers seems to be the way.

I think you have a good point there, keepingquiet. It was bad enough in HE, where pressures are different but some of this applies, but (speaking from experience of friends and family in teaching), schools are a lot worse.

I’m generalising because there is no alternative, but I think that part of the problem is that people are often promoted when they have few management skills. They might be excellent at subject knowledge and very willing to take on extra responsibilities, but that doesn’t mean that they are able to bring out the best in others. It doesn’t always mean that they want to either, when success can be based on ‘dead man’s shoes’ and promotion is in the gift of colleagues who are looking out for their own careers.

Then there is the pay structure, which means that people who have been there for years get paid a lot more than new starters. This rightly rewards experience, but can lead to some well-paid people resting on their laurels on one hand, and on the other a desire to get rid of experienced people to bring in cheaper ones in higher numbers, neither of which is good for either efficiency or morale. The same things can block opportunities for experienced teachers to move schools, too. Whereas they would bring in new ideas, they are expensive and a possible threat to people on the interview panel.

Then there is government interference, with ministers who have no experience of teaching bringing in measures on a ‘one size fits all’ basis, and reducing the right of teachers to make professional judgments.

I can’t really speak about behaviour and classroom discipline, but can imagine it must be soul-destroying to have to try to teach if you don’t have the backing of a supportive SMT.

Then there’s the commonly held perception that anyone who’s been to school could do the job, and that it’s 9.00-3.00 with months of holiday . That perception applies to HE too, and it’s a long way from the truth.

I don’t know the answers, as if my generalisations are true (which they may not be) they are a mixture of both centralised control on one hand and the opposite of that (devolution?) on the other.

Aldom

A friend of ours resigned from teaching thirty years ago (Head of department, German) because of the bad behaviour of the pupils.

That is interesting to hear because 30 years ago things weren't so bad and German was not one of the more challenging subjects. I can't say I blame them and hope they had a happy life. I dread to think what it must be like now being a teacher especially in certain areas with certain subjects and the challenges of certain types of pupils and certain class sizes. Who wants to go to university and spend four years training to be treated like some object of ridicule? And, then spend the many hours preparing lessons which could be destroyed by some challenging pupils?

I fully understand why teaches are leaving, ditto doctors, police, etc. public behaviour, and a sense of entitlement is very bad and truly sad.
DS is still teaching, but he works for the franchise of “United World Colleges” (like Atlantic College in Wales).
The students are years 12-13 and come from some 80 countries. They are very focussed, many on scholarships, most from very deprived backgrounds, some refugees. They are generally less ghastly, needy or entitled than many these days. He has been pushed into administration, which he loathes, and is considering getting a teaching job in yet another of those schools.

When I was in school the head teacher begged my mother to allow me to enter the teaching profession. Of course that did not come off as it would have meant (in those days) my going to training college. And I was qute sure, even at that age, I did not want to teach children. Teaching then was regarded as a good solid profession along with being a doctor or solicitor. Most teachers were respected by parents. Thats how it should be.

Later I went briefly into further and then higher education. Even then there were a few spoiled little darlings seeking the "university experience" who thought their degree would be handed to them on a plate. In the 1990s there were de-motivated and over entitled students. Nowadays I read about how many of them never attend lectures (most of which are online anyway). Higher education is filled with tiresome wokery and I'm glad Im not an academic any more.

I would never have wanted to teach children. Many of them now are feral. So are their parents.

I agree with the posters who said that teaching requires a good shake up. We need to get back to showing respect for the authority figures in our society.

I began my teaching career in a boys’ grammar school. I think the main challenges were because I was a young female. I was not sorry when I had to leave to move away for my husband’s work. After a few years out, I then taught part-time in a girls’ grammar school, which I really enjoyed. Further moves resulted in five years teaching in five different comprehensive schools, after which I was determined to leave the profession. It was soul destroying. Admittedly this was in an area where there was much poverty, low expectations, and few resources.

I count myself fortunate to have found a job in an independent girls’ grammar, which I loved, and stayed over 20 years until retirement.
The private sector is not a doddle. Academic standards are high, requiring a huge amount of preparation and quality lessons, a lot of marking and often additional help for individual pupils. I gladly did all that rather than attempting to teach unmotivated badly behaved pupils. But the pressures were there- especially from parents, notably the nouveaux riches, who baldly stated. ‘We are paying you to get her A grades’.
In a way the management echoed those pressures, but on the whole were very supportive. Colleagues were lovely, well, 95% of them. The atmosphere in the school was one of mutual respect. I was sad to retire.
Although in many ways we conformed to norms in the curriculum, we were free from the constraints which arose at the whim of the latest Secretary of State. There was money for resources. The majority of parents were on our side, and the majority of pupils were hard-working - and competitive.

I am not surprised that many young teachers do not stay long in teaching, though the village primary my grandchildren attended was an exception.

Poor behaviour of some children. Poor support from some parents and their current ambition to get a label for their child that they think will excuse the poor behaviour instead of supporting the teacher.

I went into Nursing another very stressful career, I would not have been able to, non of us would, without the teachers guiding us through the learning experience, from Primary school throughout our informative years, onto to University, although much of that was deemed "self learning". Three of my family , one retired, one Deputy Head, one in training. The youngest member is loving her training and classroom experiences, Primary, and I wouldn't try to put them off. We need enthusiastic, dedicated teachers, as with Nursing, you don't go into it just for the money surely, well I didn't. I know they aren't either.

Am I right in thinking you're in Australia nanna?

DS teaches there and has been becoming increasingly disillusioned for the reasons you've listed in your OP.

There is a whole range of valid reasons why teachers are laeving in high numbers, but it really boils down to lack of money.

I worked in a support role in a comprehensive school in an area of high deprivation from 2000 to 2013. The school visibly benefitted from the funding increases by Labour from 1998 onwards in terms of increased support services, both internal and external. The post 2010 tory cuts to education spending rapidly reversed the level of support we could offer needy children. Cuts to local authorities have meant that LA provided non school services to children were cut, too. It's a bit of a perfect storm, really.

Freezing teachers and support staff pay for so long hasn't helped with retention either.

Mollygo

Poor behaviour of some children. Poor support from some parents and their current ambition to get a label for their child that they think will excuse the poor behaviour instead of supporting the teacher.

The lack of parental support must be very frustrating. Having seen some of the threads on MN on the lines of 'My 12 year old accidentally dropped his book and it landed on a boy sitting on the other side of the classroom. He has been given detention. Where do I report the teacher for giving an excessive punishment?' I am amazed that anyone stays for more than a term or two.

Smileless2012

Am I right in thinking you're in Australia nanna?

DS teaches there and has been becoming increasingly disillusioned for the reasons you've listed in your OP.

Some private schools are more affordable here but tend to be religious schools, eg Anglican and Catholic.

Just like here, many State schools have pupils who are totally out of control but it is difficult to discipline them.
Even at primary level here in the UK, in a lovely school , some out-of-control children run amok, hitting and biting staff, throwing equipment around and physical restraint is not allowed.
It makes life exceedingly difficult for staff and for other pupils who want to learn

Some private schools are more affordable here but tend to be religious schools, eg Anglican and Catholic.
There meaning in Australia.

My perception is, that higher standards are achieved in the Far East, China, Japan, S Korea for example, from a combination of the teacher having complete control in the classroom. Misbehaviour not tolerated and possibly an overload of work and expectations. Certainly that was an impression that I got from a programme on S Korea's education system.

I think it is deeply worrying that teachers are leaving due to the problems stated. We will end up with unsuitable people teaching our children. That worries me more than anything because children need quality teachers to educate and inspire them.

For an example of unsuitable people, this headteacher was sentenced yesterday for harassing a younger member of staff, but what shocked me was the way he behaved when arrested. Instead of walking away with the Police with some dignity, he just fell to the ground, accused them of hurting him and refused to get up! It reminded me of a 3 year old having a tantrum, but he was a headteacher! The thought of him running a school is deeply shocking.
Footage here (only some of it though!)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=_w00uC-hGPc
Article here:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqjlr5d55rpo

As you said earlier Doodledog the need for a supportive SLT is important and helps.
One the parent is always right head,
made dealing with issues more difficult and more than one of us often called on the union for support.

A more supportive head meant that we could refuse to see certain parents unless the head (or deputy) was in attendance.

Phrases like, What’s he here for? gave an idea of how the meeting would go.
My least favourite parent ranted about how unfairly her child was treated, and that he hadn’t meant to hurt the other child, then said she would see the head about this totally forgetting that the head was there.

Fortunately, the pleasure of teaching overrides the occasional bad day, but I understood why DD2 decided after 18 months, that it wasn’t for her.

Can I ask where these teachers that leave the profession go? Do they all just retire? Or are there jobs that they are better suited to?

A close relative was forced to resign from her state secondary school teaching job (DTech). She was teaching in a class of 33 kids, mostly statemented, with no assistants. The classroom was an odd design with a wall dividing the room. The previous term she had flagged her concerns over lack of visibility of some pupils. She did a full statement including with measurements and pictures of the problems. It wasn’t received well by the head teacher. A pupil that was deemed to be a suicide risk managed to sneak out of the busy room. As an ex mental health worker I wonder why the headmaster assured the child’s welfare team that s/he would be looked after in the full knowledge that there wasn’t the staff to do so. Within minutes the school counsellor whom the child had gone to, flagged it. Police were called as it was dereliction of duty/failure of duty of care. After some short investigation she was given the option to either resign, with a disclosure agreement, or be sacked and banned from working with children ever again. She is a dedicated teacher, goes above and beyond always, and is probably one of the kindest caring people you could meet. She had a breakdown and is still on antidepressants. And then the government wonder why good teachers are leaving in droves.

Aveline

Can I ask where these teachers that leave the profession go? Do they all just retire? Or are there jobs that they are better suited to?

DD2 went into technology and management of that dept at a University. She won awards for organisation and client support. And no one threw chairs at her or expected her to do endless lesson plans.

DS taught in a private school for a year Callistemon, a Christian Academy and said there was no support for teachers and the students ruled the roost.

If parents were contacted about their child's behaviour and they contacted the Principal, it was the student who was supported over and above teaching staff.