These lengthy prison sentences for rioters

People might like to read this thesis by Liam McKee presented to the Department of History University of California San Diego in April 2021:

history.ucsd.edu/_files/undergraduate/honors-theses/Slaves-To-A-Myth.pdf

Slaves To A Myth: Irish Indentured Servitude, African Slavery, and the Politics of White Nationalism

Abstract:

A new myth is poised to enter the public consciousness as a popular misconception. It purports that the first slaves in the Americas were not Africans; that they were Irish men and women who were enslaved on English Caribbean sugar plantations in conditions much worse than any African had to endure. This myth is a deliberate lie. Irish immigrants to the Caribbean colonies were not slaves – they were a type of worker known as indentured servants. The Irish Slaves Myth does not seek to right an historical wrong against Irish people; instead, it has been created in order to diminish the African-American experience of slavery in the hyper-partisan political discourse of today. This thesis refutes the Irish Slaves Myth by directly examining 17th century British state papers in order to make clear the difference between an enslaved person and an indentured servant.

There you go. Primary sources. McKee describes very clearly the origins and development of the myth.

Babs03

My husband is a man of colour as of course are my children. As a white woman I had never experienced how it feels to be on the receiving end of racism, now I do and so can list some of the realities for people of colour living in predominantly white countries.
1. You will need to have ‘that conversation’ with your kids. Heartbreaking but necessary.
2. More often than not you will be searched at airports etc.
3. People will insist upon asking where you come from, even if you were born here.
4. Sometimes some rogue racist will hurl abuse and you will have to just walk away and hope he/she doesn’t try to attack you.
5. At interviews and when you get a job you will have to try harder in order to succeed.
6. If you have a house, nice car, etc., some people will question how you got all this.
7. Some people will make false assumptions, that you are culturally backward, treat women badly, are money grabbing/criminally minded.

This is as much as I can think of off the cuff.

4. Sometimes some rogue racist will hurl abuse and you will have to just walk away and hope he/she doesn’t try to attack you
Which is what happened to someone I know twice last week

The sentences are not lengthy enough considering the damage caused and the cost to repair all the damage.

Maerion

People might like to read this thesis by Liam McKee presented to the Department of History University of California San Diego in April 2021:

history.ucsd.edu/_files/undergraduate/honors-theses/Slaves-To-A-Myth.pdf

Slaves To A Myth: Irish Indentured Servitude, African Slavery, and the Politics of White Nationalism

Abstract:

A new myth is poised to enter the public consciousness as a popular misconception. It purports that the first slaves in the Americas were not Africans; that they were Irish men and women who were enslaved on English Caribbean sugar plantations in conditions much worse than any African had to endure. This myth is a deliberate lie. Irish immigrants to the Caribbean colonies were not slaves – they were a type of worker known as indentured servants. The Irish Slaves Myth does not seek to right an historical wrong against Irish people; instead, it has been created in order to diminish the African-American experience of slavery in the hyper-partisan political discourse of today. This thesis refutes the Irish Slaves Myth by directly examining 17th century British state papers in order to make clear the difference between an enslaved person and an indentured servant.

There you go. Primary sources. McKee describes very clearly the origins and development of the myth.

Cheers m’dears.

I should have stopped and found the source myself

Doing it from memory is never a very good idea.

Redhead56

The sentences are not lengthy enough considering the damage caused and the cost to repair all the damage.

Maybe the punishment is not long enough. Maybe community service on top, after the time served, should be a consideration in future. There is a huge need for volunteers in the country and if really remorseful they could continue to fill the gap ‘….idle hands’ and all that. (Even though in an ideal world many volunteer positions should really be funded)

Whitewavemark2

Primrose53

Whitewavemark2

Primrose53

Doodledog

Callistemon213

I rather like him

So do I. Isn't he a professor of Black history? That's why his programmes tend to be about slavery etc. It's not exactly a crowded market, so his voice is heard more than others on the subject. I love his House Through Time series, too.

I liked his House Through Time too. He goes on and on about white people having slaves but never mentions the black people who captured white people and enslaved them.

As an example many white Irish people were captured and taken to Barbados where they were kept as slaves and the lowest of the low. A small community still exists to this day. They were called Red Legs as with their pale Irish skin they burned really badly. the singer Rihanna is a descendant.

You are re-writing history. - it is the primrose farage version of British history. Entirely incorrect with a tiny bit if truth attached. It is what populists do.

I really don’t have the time or inclination to say why.

Nothing to do with Farage and true!

You are always telling people not to spread misinformation and now you are inferring that what I posted is untrue. It absolutely is not!

I will just leave this link as I am on my way to hospital appt.

www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/irish-roots-were-there-irish-slaves-in-barbados-1.2337597

I hope you have the decency to apologise.

And did you check these “facts” against academic material?

No? - I thought not.

You little bit of truth is that indeed Irish emigrated to Barbados beginning during William and Mary”s reign. But that is where you “truthful facts” end. They were never slaves or considered the lowest of the low. Their economic relationship with their employers was entirely different.

They were indentured servants. A common practice during this time. Indeed many individuals in the West Indies, and indeed throughout Africa etc can trace back their ancestors to indentured labour.

They were never slaves. Indeed once their indentured contract ended they were free to go where they wished.

In this febrile time truth matters particularly where we are discussing race.

You are so arrogant. Obviously you don’t approve of my link because it’s from the Irish Times. Some would say that’s a racist reason because you only listen to what Olusaga says. He isn’t God you know!

I have watched him on countless discussions on TV and whatever the subject he will drag it round to racism. He is rude and arrogant and shouts over people all the time.

I call these poor people slaves, you call them something else but they were treated terribly and most were not aware of their rights.

borgenproject.org/redlegs-of-barbados/#:~:text=Oliver%20Cromwell%2C%20a%20political%20and,become%20the%20Redlegs%20of%20Barbados.

Obviously this will be a pack of lies in your eyes.🤣

Maerion

People might like to read this thesis by Liam McKee presented to the Department of History University of California San Diego in April 2021:

history.ucsd.edu/_files/undergraduate/honors-theses/Slaves-To-A-Myth.pdf

Slaves To A Myth: Irish Indentured Servitude, African Slavery, and the Politics of White Nationalism

Abstract:

A new myth is poised to enter the public consciousness as a popular misconception. It purports that the first slaves in the Americas were not Africans; that they were Irish men and women who were enslaved on English Caribbean sugar plantations in conditions much worse than any African had to endure. This myth is a deliberate lie. Irish immigrants to the Caribbean colonies were not slaves – they were a type of worker known as indentured servants. The Irish Slaves Myth does not seek to right an historical wrong against Irish people; instead, it has been created in order to diminish the African-American experience of slavery in the hyper-partisan political discourse of today. This thesis refutes the Irish Slaves Myth by directly examining 17th century British state papers in order to make clear the difference between an enslaved person and an indentured servant.

There you go. Primary sources. McKee describes very clearly the origins and development of the myth.

*primrose read that and then understand my argument.

White nationalism indeed.

This is not a new argument, as I did a thesis on just this subject when I was at university about 100 years ago.

It is a pity that it is not more fully understood or taught. AlthoughI admit a tad niche😄

You have made it clear that you dislike DO. That’s fine. But try not to muddle your dislike with understanding the argument behind what he is saying. You might find it enlightening.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

I have reported your post Freya5. Personal insults are completely unnecessary, not to mention mean.

Freya5
Don’t take it personally, many of us have taken our turn in the barrel 😩

Primrose, Freya, please refrain from calling posters " arrogant".

Freya5 - your post is a personal insult to Whitewave so seems to break guidelines
There’s also some projection going on here. You’re accusing another poster of always being right ……

Whitewavemark2

I said that DO seems to have written out his mother.....

You are saying he has not. I am happy to be corrected, but will not accept your rude and arrogant and inflammatory comment accusing me of being a liar. How dare you? I am not a liar.

Sparklefizz

Whitewavemark2

I said that DO seems to have written out his mother.....

You are saying he has not. I am happy to be corrected, but will not accept your rude and arrogant and inflammatory comment accusing me of being a liar. How dare you? I am not a liar.

There can only be one or two explanations for your post maintaining that DO had written his mother out of his life.

The first that you had read this incorrect information and repeated it in your post. In which case I would be glad to read it and apologise.

The second is that you simply made a guess at DO’s attitude towards his mother. Now the question is why would you do that? Was it to make mischief, or inflame an already inflamed thread on race, or simply to lie in the assumption that no one would question the veracity of your post?

Funny- I always get searched at airports, every single time. Funny- I very often get asked where I come from.
I often wonder why ( seriously !) I detest airports and that is one of the reasons. I never thought it was to do with my colour but maybe it is.

MayBee70

Babs03

My husband is a man of colour as of course are my children. As a white woman I had never experienced how it feels to be on the receiving end of racism, now I do and so can list some of the realities for people of colour living in predominantly white countries.
1. You will need to have ‘that conversation’ with your kids. Heartbreaking but necessary.
2. More often than not you will be searched at airports etc.
3. People will insist upon asking where you come from, even if you were born here.
4. Sometimes some rogue racist will hurl abuse and you will have to just walk away and hope he/she doesn’t try to attack you.
5. At interviews and when you get a job you will have to try harder in order to succeed.
6. If you have a house, nice car, etc., some people will question how you got all this.
7. Some people will make false assumptions, that you are culturally backward, treat women badly, are money grabbing/criminally minded.

This is as much as I can think of off the cuff.

4. Sometimes some rogue racist will hurl abuse and you will have to just walk away and hope he/she doesn’t try to attack you
Which is what happened to someone I know twice last week

Just posting to thank Babs03 for the list.

It will take generations for education to get rid of racism especially as some politicians and 'celebrities' stir it up.

I think prison sentences for rioting men and women are justified and certainly for acts of violence and attempted arson.

But our prison system needs serious reform to reduce recidivism and that will cost big money. The problem is there are no votes in prison reform compared with other forms of public expenditure.

Whitewavemark2

What is happening is that you are getting the economic relationship muddled.

African slaves were commodities. No different to sugar, guns etc. they were bought and sold at auction and belong entirely to the purchaser to do with as they wished, from controlling their birth to their death.

The. Irish were indentured Labour. This formed a legal contract between their employers and the employed. Indentured Labour is where sn individual signs a contract to work for a company/firm. Indentured employment was unpleasant and entirely exploited by the employers, but it was NOT slave labour. The indentured individual was paid a wage, worked the length of time albeit miserable existence and was then free. The Caribbean has many indentured descendants including Asians and other Europeans.

The slave is never ever free. Indeed he is never treated as a human being merely a commodity.

This!

Grantanow ~ ithe impact of the problems facing the CjS is no longer being hidden. This government is already talking about the need to improve it and not just by building some new jails to replace the Victorian prisons, no longer fit for purpose
Appointing James Timpson was a step in the right direction

I believe in the old saying if you can’t do the time don’t do the crime.
I think our justice system needs changing for people to serve the whole sentence in prison not shortened for good behaviour, time should be added for bad behaviour, and I believe a life sentence should be just that until the day they die.
And I wouldn’t hesitate to give a lethal injection to someone who has hurt children, we need to build more prisons not let them out early to make room
Rant over 😬

lemsip

wether it does them good or not is neither here nor there, It's to make others think twice if there is a next time and good job too

👍👍
A deterrent is what is needed as well as punishment.
And for those miscreants who think they shouldn’t have been locked up when others weren’t, they only have themselves to blame. As I say to the children in school when they say “He did it too!”
“You are the one I saw doing it!” Shoes can’t

Iam64

Grantanow ~ ithe impact of the problems facing the CjS is no longer being hidden. This government is already talking about the need to improve it and not just by building some new jails to replace the Victorian prisons, no longer fit for purpose
Appointing James Timpson was a step in the right direction

It would be impossible to hide the problem and Timpson is a step in the right direction. Building more prisons isn't the answer imho but the cost of improving the existing estate, increasing staffing to ensure education and rehab as well as security and a competent and well-staffed probation service isn't going to come cheap. I doubt Labour will ultimately prioritise that over the NHS, etc., because there are no or few votes in it.

Agree Grantanow. Maybe recent events will convince the electorate of the importance of prisons that do equip prisoners for life after release, otherwise the eventually released rioters will emerge from prison with worse criminal tendencies than they had when they went in.

That is what I would worry about. Many will come out of jail full of resentment and hatred of the government. I doubt many will change their views if all they get is a custodial sentence with no counselling or discussion. That is too hard for the authorities to work out,though. .