These lengthy prison sentences for rioters

Whitewavemark2

Primrose53

Doodledog

Callistemon213

I rather like him

So do I. Isn't he a professor of Black history? That's why his programmes tend to be about slavery etc. It's not exactly a crowded market, so his voice is heard more than others on the subject. I love his House Through Time series, too.

I liked his House Through Time too. He goes on and on about white people having slaves but never mentions the black people who captured white people and enslaved them.

As an example many white Irish people were captured and taken to Barbados where they were kept as slaves and the lowest of the low. A small community still exists to this day. They were called Red Legs as with their pale Irish skin they burned really badly. the singer Rihanna is a descendant.

You are re-writing history. - it is the primrose farage version of British history. Entirely incorrect with a tiny bit if truth attached. It is what populists do.

I really don’t have the time or inclination to say why.

Nothing to do with Farage and true!

You are always telling people not to spread misinformation and now you are inferring that what I posted is untrue. It absolutely is not!

I will just leave this link as I am on my way to hospital appt.

www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/irish-roots-were-there-irish-slaves-in-barbados-1.2337597

I hope you have the decency to apologise.

No sympathy for these thugs, rioting simply because they thought they could. Returning them to the bosom of their family is the worst possible place for them, and I doubt if those who have families are responsible parents.

What I posted about Koko the gorilla is also true. About as relevant to a programme about gorillas in the wild as Irish slaves are to black history though.

Primrose53

Whitewavemark2

Primrose53

Doodledog

Callistemon213

I rather like him

So do I. Isn't he a professor of Black history? That's why his programmes tend to be about slavery etc. It's not exactly a crowded market, so his voice is heard more than others on the subject. I love his House Through Time series, too.

I liked his House Through Time too. He goes on and on about white people having slaves but never mentions the black people who captured white people and enslaved them.

As an example many white Irish people were captured and taken to Barbados where they were kept as slaves and the lowest of the low. A small community still exists to this day. They were called Red Legs as with their pale Irish skin they burned really badly. the singer Rihanna is a descendant.

You are re-writing history. - it is the primrose farage version of British history. Entirely incorrect with a tiny bit if truth attached. It is what populists do.

I really don’t have the time or inclination to say why.

Nothing to do with Farage and true!

You are always telling people not to spread misinformation and now you are inferring that what I posted is untrue. It absolutely is not!

I will just leave this link as I am on my way to hospital appt.

www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/irish-roots-were-there-irish-slaves-in-barbados-1.2337597

I hope you have the decency to apologise.

And did you check these “facts” against academic material?

No? - I thought not.

You little bit of truth is that indeed Irish emigrated to Barbados beginning during William and Mary”s reign. But that is where you “truthful facts” end. They were never slaves or considered the lowest of the low. Their economic relationship with their employers was entirely different.

They were indentured servants. A common practice during this time. Indeed many individuals in the West Indies, and indeed throughout Africa etc can trace back their ancestors to indentured labour.

They were never slaves. Indeed once their indentured contract ended they were free to go where they wished.

In this febrile time truth matters particularly where we are discussing race.

Perhaps because it has generally been established that these people were enslaved, that is why many believe it to be true.

The Redlegs – Ireland’s Sugar Slaves

moondance.tv/show/the-redlegs-ireland-sugar-slaves/#:~:text=The%20Redlegs%20is%20the%20untold,rich%20English%20planters%20in%20Barbados.

Moondance Productions is a television production company based in Dublin and London, specialising in factual, reality and documentary series.

Oh yes

I wonder by dropping your assertion that blacks enslaved whites.

You would be so kind as to expand on that with more information.

Callistemon213

Perhaps because it has generally been established that these people were enslaved, that is why many believe it to be true.

The Redlegs – Ireland’s Sugar Slaves

moondance.tv/show/the-redlegs-ireland-sugar-slaves/#:~:text=The%20Redlegs%20is%20the%20untold,rich%20English%20planters%20in%20Barbados.

Moondance Productions is a television production company based in Dublin and London, specialising in factual, reality and documentary series.

Perhaps, but it isn’t correct.

Perhaps you'd like to contact Moondance Productions and tell them to stop spreading misinformation?

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/12/irish-people-sent-to-the-caribbean-were-not-enslaved I never knew but a quick google reveals all.
Now back to winterwhite topic, I did think that education should be part of the sentencing for rioters but that’s always been argued and some prisoners do make use of education while in prison. I’ve been surprised and then not been surprised at the number revealed to already have a criminal record.

What is happening is that you are getting the economic relationship muddled.

African slaves were commodities. No different to sugar, guns etc. they were bought and sold at auction and belong entirely to the purchaser to do with as they wished, from controlling their birth to their death.

The. Irish were indentured Labour. This formed a legal contract between their employers and the employed. Indentured Labour is where sn individual signs a contract to work for a company/firm. Indentured employment was unpleasant and entirely exploited by the employers, but it was NOT slave labour. The indentured individual was paid a wage, worked the length of time albeit miserable existence and was then free. The Caribbean has many indentured descendants including Asians and other Europeans.

The slave is never ever free. Indeed he is never treated as a human being merely a commodity.

The TV production company really should be told off, Whitewave, here you are:
Email: [email protected]

You have also to understand the “mindset” of the European during this period.

White people were superior in every way to black people, because God had made them so. It is only the black nations that were able to tolerate slavery because they were naturally inferior. White people were never therefore able to tolerate slavery.

It was during this time that the concept of race emerged.

Sparklefizz

Primrose53

Whitewavemark2

David Olusoga wrote today that the rioters are simply racists. There is zero excuse for what they did.

Am inclined to agree.

Everybody in the world is racist according to him.

I do wonder how his mum feels because she is white and brought him up as a single mum yet she seems to have been written out of his life story.

I’m shaped by my mother, a product of her incredible resilience, determination and ambition for her children. My mother is remarkable. She fought for her children, for their education, for them to have expectations. I’d love to say I’m an incredible self-invention, but largely I was pushed by my mother. I’m a product of a truly remarkable parent. And as a parent now, bringing up my child with far more material resources, I’m even more in awe of her

David Olusoga

Always check that you can’t be found out before you lie.

I think you also have to understand the mindset of African Tribes, who were more than happy to sell and/or exchange their fellow citizens for guns and or money.

As far as I can see the 'Irish slaves in Barbados' has some truth in it but even the wiki page doesn't seem too sure...

It looks to me as though there was a mixture of Irish prisoners of war (Cromwell was pretty brutal to Ireland) and indentured servants.

However, I think that 'slavery' is quite irrelevant to 'racism' . Over the years people in just about every country/nation have been, and are, discriminated against purely on the grounds of their race, regardless of whether or not their forebears had ever been slaves.

I would agree with Olusaga that the initial motive for the riots was racism. I can't see how anyone can possibly deny it. But it doesn't follow that everyone who rioted was a racist.

GrannyGravy13

I think you also have to understand the mindset of African Tribes, who were more than happy to sell and/or exchange their fellow citizens for guns and or money.

Still are to a degree.

But that is not what we are talking about.

GrannyGravy13

I think you also have to understand the mindset of African Tribes, who were more than happy to sell and/or exchange their fellow citizens for guns and or money.

Yup. Racism in action.

MaizieD

As far as I can see the 'Irish slaves in Barbados' has some truth in it but even the wiki page doesn't seem too sure...

It looks to me as though there was a mixture of Irish prisoners of war (Cromwell was pretty brutal to Ireland) and indentured servants.

However, I think that 'slavery' is quite irrelevant to 'racism' . Over the years people in just about every country/nation have been, and are, discriminated against purely on the grounds of their race, regardless of whether or not their forebears had ever been slaves.

I would agree with Olusaga that the initial motive for the riots was racism. I can't see how anyone can possibly deny it. But it doesn't follow that everyone who rioted was a racist.

So my question..

Did the Irish have the same economic relationship to their employers as the African?

I was aware of Irish slaves

I am also aware of slaves in UAE countries currently from the Indian continent.

Good God. You lot just go chattering on about slavery.😒

Slavery is an expression of racism, but racism embraces far, far more than slavery.

MaizieD

GrannyGravy13

I think you also have to understand the mindset of African Tribes, who were more than happy to sell and/or exchange their fellow citizens for guns and or money.

Yup. Racism in action.

No😮 that isn’t racism.

Racism ideology was used by the European to justify slavery.

The reason for the capture of slaves was entirely different, in the tribal warfare. They had no reason justify their actions so race was never an issue

MaizieD

Good God. You lot just go chattering on about slavery.😒

Slavery is an expression of racism, but racism embraces far, far more than slavery.

It does now - but not when it was first used as a concept.

Whitewavemark2

MaizieD

As far as I can see the 'Irish slaves in Barbados' has some truth in it but even the wiki page doesn't seem too sure...

It looks to me as though there was a mixture of Irish prisoners of war (Cromwell was pretty brutal to Ireland) and indentured servants.

However, I think that 'slavery' is quite irrelevant to 'racism' . Over the years people in just about every country/nation have been, and are, discriminated against purely on the grounds of their race, regardless of whether or not their forebears had ever been slaves.

I would agree with Olusaga that the initial motive for the riots was racism. I can't see how anyone can possibly deny it. But it doesn't follow that everyone who rioted was a racist.

So my question..

Did the Irish have the same economic relationship to their employers as the African?

The answer seems to be that some of then did, and some of them didn't.

But really it would mean doing a bit more in depth research than a quick look at wikipedia. I didn't find Primrose's source particularly convincing one way or the other, either.

But, I don't think 'slavery' is relevant to the racist nature of the riots. Or to Olusaga. He doesn't have slave ancestry.

The Irish indentured Labour or indeed prisoner, may have been forced labour to an extent, but they were never slaves in the economic or actual sense.

None of them were bought or sold on - all within a time frame gained their freedom.

Thy were never part of the slave economy.

My husband is a man of colour as of course are my children. As a white woman I had never experienced how it feels to be on the receiving end of racism, now I do and so can list some of the realities for people of colour living in predominantly white countries.
1. You will need to have ‘that conversation’ with your kids. Heartbreaking but necessary.
2. More often than not you will be searched at airports etc.
3. People will insist upon asking where you come from, even if you were born here.
4. Sometimes some rogue racist will hurl abuse and you will have to just walk away and hope he/she doesn’t try to attack you.
5. At interviews and when you get a job you will have to try harder in order to succeed.
6. If you have a house, nice car, etc., some people will question how you got all this.
7. Some people will make false assumptions, that you are culturally backward, treat women badly, are money grabbing/criminally minded.

This is as much as I can think of off the cuff.