These lengthy prison sentences for rioters

Elegran

The prisons are full of the illiterate.

That’s true and something I do have experience of working with.

But the problem with this is, it starts very early. Schools, parents and the health service reluctant to diagnose children with learning difficulties or autism so they get early intervention and support. Local authorities are cutting funding, not spending it responsibly on young people who need investment so they have a more secure future. We have a system where parents have to go private to get a diagnosis and then these people get the support for their own children but it also means there is a group who require the support but their parents are unable or not accepting of using 'the system' Austerity has created a terrible divide. Those that can pay do, those that can't have been neglected. Of course it would all cause future problems but people pretended they didn;t care and some only care now as it is affecting them

JaneJudge

But the problem with this is, it starts very early. Schools, parents and the health service reluctant to diagnose children with learning difficulties or autism so they get early intervention and support. Local authorities are cutting funding, not spending it responsibly on young people who need investment so they have a more secure future. We have a system where parents have to go private to get a diagnosis and then these people get the support for their own children but it also means there is a group who require the support but their parents are unable or not accepting of using 'the system' Austerity has created a terrible divide. Those that can pay do, those that can't have been neglected. Of course it would all cause future problems but people pretended they didn;t care and some only care now as it is affecting them

Austerity has created a terrible divide....

Yes, hasn't it just. Far from the all being in it together trope, the divide widened.

Osborne decided it was time to ' balance the books'.

In reality, the money 'saved' didn't really go to to pay down the national debt - it went into, on the whole, giving tax cuts to the relatively better off.

Austerity was a cover for what the government wanted to do anyway - cut public spending and shrink the state.

... and here we are. They did it.

And so it leads to fights for limited resources, blaming other groups. I don't think the current government wants this, but it seems to me that the media thrives on it. Interviews on many news stations deliberately pit groups against each other instead of solution-seeking.

JaneJudge

But the problem with this is, it starts very early. Schools, parents and the health service reluctant to diagnose children with learning difficulties or autism so they get early intervention and support. Local authorities are cutting funding, not spending it responsibly on young people who need investment so they have a more secure future. We have a system where parents have to go private to get a diagnosis and then these people get the support for their own children but it also means there is a group who require the support but their parents are unable or not accepting of using 'the system' Austerity has created a terrible divide. Those that can pay do, those that can't have been neglected. Of course it would all cause future problems but people pretended they didn;t care and some only care now as it is affecting them

What a good comment👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
We mustn’t go back to ‘Austerity’ and as far as I can see we should be raising taxes, I don’t earn a lot but am happy to pay a little more in income tax.It was a mistake for RR to rule out any tax rises before the election.

Schools, parents and the health service reluctant to diagnose children with learning difficulties or autism so they get early intervention and support.
This has been improving over the last few years. I have seen much earlier diagnoses, with more children coming into school with an EHCP already in place and more children being diagnosed even before entering KS2, but it’s still not sufficient.
The situation is worsened since more and more parents are diagnosing their children and demanding a label that matches what they feel their child needs.
It’s not always easy e.g. I recently met with a parent recently moved from Ireland who wanted support for her son who she thought had ASC.
“The school won’t do anything!” she said.
“They say he’s perfectly well behaved in school, that he’s doing well both academically and socially. But he’s a nightmare at home and he even attacks his little brother.”
I pointed her to some of the local parent help groups including the one my DGS went to. I asked if she’d like DD to introduce her, but whether she’ll go or not, who knows.

I do recognise that scenario, Mollygo.

Mollygo, you’re correct, some parents seek a diagnosis for various reasons when their difficulties could be helped by a good Parenting Skills course

We shouldn’t forget though, that some very bright children who cope well in the structured school environment are masking their ASD features. They get home, emotionally exhausted by masking their anxiety at school, often by over achieving, exemplary behaviour. A parent ask them to pick their coat or bag up and the child explodes. Parents are exhausted by their attempts to manage extreme outbursts and dole out sanctions. No screen time tonight they insist, thus depriving their child of down time.
Parents can feel so criticised and judged because the challenging behaviour only happens when they’re with their much loved child

Attacking parents and siblings is often seen in these children. Because they’re good children at school, don’t tick the ASD checklist for school assessments (poor eye contact, isolated from peer group, challenging behaviour) they aren’t suitable for CAHMS referral via GP, or referral to school psychological services.
Parents with finances / or grandparents who can give £2000 often get a private assessment. That can really help with managing the behaviour better, and the report if from a recognised psychological services can help school and child. It can’t be right though, that this is the only way to access expert help

It isn’t fair on anyone

Those who are disruptive in schools are mostly the less academic ones, who have nothing to feel any achievement about, and don't see any point in being co-operative. They ned skills that they can't learn in a classroom, and people to learn them from who are not associated in their minds with their failure in the three Rs.

I very much agree with this, and and saw it happening in the secondary school I worked in.

Non-academic pupils felt as if they were failing straight away, and this feeling of failure increased as they progressed up the school. Streaming only helps the more academic children, which I wouldn't dismiss, but makes the sense of failure even more apparent to the others. How could it not, knowing they were in the 'bottom set'?

I remember being in a classroom in a 'bottom set' year 10 English lesson (I was there to help a severely autistic boy). They were all boys, high on testosterone, and many lessons descended into uproar and running around, jumping from desk to desk. They were doing Romeo and Juliet, and watched part of the 1996 film. They were absolutely transfixed by it and really enjoyed watching it. But instead of being able to enjoy the whole film, they only saw two bits, then had to write an essay on it, which they hated and weren't able to do!

I felt that watching the whole film and then maybe talking about it would have had FAR more benefit to them; having to grind out essays on it was pushing them through a round hole that didn't fit them, so all they could succeed in was creating mayhem.

Ilovecheese

Quokka

I never thought I’d say this but ….I’m thinking about some kind of military-discipline-type intervention to reclaim these youngsters while still at school?

Those failed by our education system?

Rather than the kind of unit that already exists for disruptive pupils something more positive, focused, etc.

At KS3 perhaps where instead of following the national curriculum and teacher led, something more in the line of a Cadet Corps? Run by professional soldiers? Police? Professional tradesmen?

I’m just thinking off the top of my head here but something needs to be done to help those at risk of ending up in prison surely?

So they would still be violent, but it would be more disciplined and skilled violence?

Violent? What ARE you talking about?

Mollygo

Quokka
At KS3 perhaps where instead of following the national curriculum and teacher led, something more in the line of a Cadet Corps? Run by professional soldiers? Police? Professional tradesmen?
Sounds a good idea, especially if it was a compulsory part of the curriculum. I know it would be difficult to fit in time wise, but it would give students a taste of discipline, and experiences that might be useful for them.
My KS3 DGD is a Navy cadet, but she had to compete for a place in that group, and they meet out of school hours. You can’t make out of school hours compulsory.

So you, like myself, have experienced the benefits of the various Cadet Corps eg Air Cadets, Army, Navy, Police?

Voluntary, yes, but highly competitive. My idea was taking certain kids, and taking them off curriculum and instead offering this as an alternative education full time in school.
Add in trades skills, life skills, and more relevant qualifications.

Yes, would mean bringing professionals other than teachers into schools, would need proper funding and organising, but could well save more than just money in the long term.

I agree with the many benefits of the uniform cadet groups.
I’m not sure about removing children fro. The national curriculum or school. We need to expand the curriculum so it enables more focus on practical

Add in trades skills, life skills, and more relevant qualifications.

Yes-like the woodwork and metalwork and technical drawing that my Grammar school offered all those years ago, but with a more focused outcome.
To most of us, they were just subjects that got you out of the usual lessons, not something to do for life.
Children in KS2 learn about electrical circuits, (using batteries only) and use their knowledge in DT, making reading lights etc, but they don’t see that as a life skill.

Working out a whole curriculum for that would take some time, and would you only offer it to certain children?

What is needed is for Politics to be taught effectively and from an unbiased perspective.

Knowing how your country is governed from Parish Councils to Westminster Palace, being taught that voting gives you a voice. Being aware that it is possible to contact councillors, MP’s etc, would all be beneficial.

I hazard a guess that those who rioted along with the keyboard warriors are disenfranchised from politics, with no sense of community cohesion.

Education is the key to a life well lived.

GrannyGravy13

What is needed is for Politics to be taught effectively and from an unbiased perspective.

Knowing how your country is governed from Parish Councils to Westminster Palace, being taught that voting gives you a voice. Being aware that it is possible to contact councillors, MP’s etc, would all be beneficial.

I hazard a guess that those who rioted along with the keyboard warriors are disenfranchised from politics, with no sense of community cohesion.

Education is the key to a life well lived.

I couldn't agree more. Many years ago, something called British Constitution was taught in a school where I worked as part of PSHE. As part of the same programme, we also taught pupils about interpreting media sources (this was before the internet and even more needed now). We taught about recognising bias, sources and differentiating between fact and opinion.

I'm a little cynical about teaching young teenagers trade skills because nobody knows what trade skills will be needed over their working lives. They will still be in the workplace in 50 or 60 years and who could have predicted 50 or 60 years ago what skills are needed now? Part of the problem with areas which have been "left behind" is that the trades of 50 years ago have gone, but for whatever reason people haven't adapted to the new jobs.

IMO young people need better literacy and numeracy skills to cope with future changes. What does need to change is the kind of literacy and numeracy taught. We all rely on the internet, so reading skills have never been so important. Children should be taught how to recognise scams and conspiracists. Numeracy could be much more practical and applied than it currently is.

I'd also like to see an expansion of adult education at a minimal cost. The Victorians had the right idea with their night schools, which continued until the end of the 20th century. I'd also like to see the OU return to to its roots as a free (or very affordable) route into higher education.

Interpreting media sources is taught now.
We still teach about recognising bias, sources and differentiating between fact and opinion.
I agree about numeracy teaching being
much more practical and applied than it currently is.
Everyone will have their own opinions of how that should look. It’s been discussed on GN before.

I agree about night schools (And Adult Education in general), and about the OU, which is very expensive these days.

I am less convinced that teaching trade skills is pointless though, as a basic ability to do DIY and repair things is useful for everyone, whether you use those skills at work or not.

It's a huge generalisation I know, but older generations mended and did house repairs themselves far more than younger ones do. When our children were little Mr Dog kept a washing machine limping on for years by replacing bits that wore out, but our son wouldn't know where to start. My two can both cook and sew buttons on, but the 'trade' skills weren't taught at school, and they weren't interested in picking them up at home. To be fair, they are great with fixing the wifi and what they jokingly refer to as 'a little light IT'

I've said this before, but IMO belittling Media Studies is wrong. So much of our opinions come from the media, and it is more important than ever that people understand how to interpret and discriminate between sources. I don't think it always suits governments to have a media-savvy population, but I think it is vital, and will get even more so as AI develops further.

I know this is going off topic somewhat but working with your hands is good for the soul too. Gardening, cooking, art, making furniture, upholstery, carpentry, sewing...this list is endless. All good to keep you busy and content with whatever is your thing. Messing about with cars etc. It gives people a focus. Yes technology is great but it isn't when you get obsessed with something indoors and cant focus your mind on other things, which has just reminded me of adult hikikomori which has been caused by prolonged social isolation (gaming is attributed as one cause)

I also think 'keyboard warriors' are isolated too. I have been isolated at times through being a parent carer and the internet/social media is an easy way to feel less isolated. People listen to you, sympathise, emphasise, offer solutions but there are also the negative points of that, especially for people who may be vulnerable

Yes to GrannyGravy’s suggestion on teaching politics - can we add teaching our history, also from a non biased perspective

and manners too, especially 'do as you would be done by' one!

Iam64

Yes to GrannyGravy’s suggestion on teaching politics - can we add teaching our history, also from a non biased perspective

There is no non-biased perspective. As soon as you remove one ‘bias’ you are allowing another to take its place.
Look at the bias in favour of female safe spaces then the viewpoint of those who feel females do not need spaces free from males.
In a simplistic form
We learned (years ago) about the benefits if machines which made producing fabrics easier, but which needed people to run them.
Then about the more sophisticated machines which needed fewer people necessary.
We looked at the benefits to consumers and owners of the newer machines, and the impact on those who lost employment as a result of them.

Wyllow3

And so it leads to fights for limited resources, blaming other groups. I don't think the current government wants this, but it seems to me that the media thrives on it. Interviews on many news stations deliberately pit groups against each other instead of solution-seeking.

... but it seems to me that the media thrives on it.

When you consider the ownership of some of our media, it's hardly surprising.

Viscount Rothermere controls the corporate parent of of the Daily Mail, and Rupert Murdoch's News Corporation, The Sun.

Would these two really want a united, politically savvy electorate deciding on the future of Britain - an equitable and fairer society for all, with well-funded public services?

What's in it for them - apart from losing some of their wealth and power? How would they benefit from public spending?

They need to maintain the status-quo, and the only way to do that is to present the public with scapegoats so we can fight among ourselves whilst they carry on with business as usual.

lemsip

and manners too, especially 'do as you would be done by' one!

Good idea, teaching manners and how to cope in society.👍🏻