These lengthy prison sentences for rioters

Spot on Dickens.

Iam64

I agree with the many benefits of the uniform cadet groups.
I’m not sure about removing children fro. The national curriculum or school. We need to expand the curriculum so it enables more focus on practical

I’m not suggesting removing them from school, just offering an alternative curriculum in school.

Many schools have a “values” curriculum, where respect, compassion, trust, politeness and many other values are taught, exemplified and practised.
Useful if they see it evidenced at home as well.
“Do as you would be done by” is replaced at the moment by “Be done by as you did” which some of us will remember from our childhood.

The photos and footage of what happened is sickening - violent, raving thugs who would have caused serious injury or death if they had succeeded. There is a shot of a man crashing a lump of concrete into a police car window, repeatedly. The PC feared for his life - they deserve every day of their sentences. Let us hope that there is some rehabilitation, and more to the point, some remorse.

LovesBach

The photos and footage of what happened is sickening - violent, raving thugs who would have caused serious injury or death if they had succeeded. There is a shot of a man crashing a lump of concrete into a police car window, repeatedly. The PC feared for his life - they deserve every day of their sentences. Let us hope that there is some rehabilitation, and more to the point, some remorse.

There is a shot of a man crashing a lump of concrete into a police car window, repeatedly. The PC feared for his life...

The veneer of civilisation is very thin on these types of individuals isn't it.

To see the footage of some of them draped in the St George's flag and shouting "Ing-a-land" as if they are some kind of ancient warrior - their faces contorted into ugliness with rage and hate, makes my blood run cold.

More worrying are the high-profile politicians and others who subtly - and not always so subtly - fan the the flames of their fury. Do they, these politicians, etc, even care, one jot, about the people they are egging on, egging on to suit their own agenda.

If we are going to be censoring what people write on social media sites - why aren't these individuals - like Farage and Anderson - also being held to account?

Sure, they are not suggesting - like that unfortunate woman - mosques are burnt down with all the adults inside. No, they're far more astute and clever for that kind of rhetoric. Clever and manipulative, because they know what they are doing - they are in simple terms, rabble-rousing.

Frankly, I find it terrifying. If that thug with a lump of concrete attacking a police car with officers inside, is so tanked up with anger and rage that he has no care whether he injures or kills one of them - how is a prison sentence going to quell his anger? I doubt it was new-found - he has probably had a lifetime of imbibing all the divisive propaganda, from politicians, the media, and social media platforms. Will he come out of prison a 'changed' man, or will his hate and rage just fester?

I think it's going to take much more than prison sentences to deal effectively with this insurrection. It would appear that quite a few of those sentenced have previous convictions for similar offences - violent offences.

At the risk of being challenged for saying so - I believe we have a whole 'under' class of people who are deprived, educationally, economically and culturally; who are basically totally ignored - until something like these riots surfaces. Then they are 'dealt' with - a prison sentence which is supposed to make them and those like them think twice about taking part in any future riots.

But it doesn't deal with the underlying problem, which is ignorance and deprivation. And nothing is being, or has been, done about that.

Dickens
But it doesn't deal with the underlying problem, which is ignorance and deprivation. And nothing is being, or has been, done about that.

That’s true, possibly because no one can think of a viable solution.

Not all the rioters were uneducated, but the number of previous convictions for violence makes it seem as if they were just looking for something to do to express their general dissatisfaction.

More worrying is the fact that he was so consumed by his anger that even knowing his behaviour was being filmed didn’t stop him. In that state of “don’t care”, what would work to stop him?

But where to start?

Feeling aggrieved that however hard you work, that is, if you can get a job, you’re never going to get anywhere is soul destroying.

Away from the riots, people being interviewed on the news about the impossibility of saving for a deposit whilst rental prices soar, show how desperate things are getting.
If you haven’t even got the money to rent a decent place . . .

I agree with Dickens

"More worrying are the high-profile politicians and others who subtly - and not always so subtly - fan the the flames of their fury. Do they, these politicians, etc, even care, one jot, about the people they are egging on, egging on to suit their own agenda".

I think a good start would be them joining in to seek solutions instead of inflaming people further.

These communities have been in decline for a very long time, since the end of the big industries. And it's right to point out - to say jobs in McDonalds or packing boxes in warehouses - aren't satisfying, but finding an answer to that one very difficult.

Wyllow3

I agree with Dickens

"More worrying are the high-profile politicians and others who subtly - and not always so subtly - fan the the flames of their fury. Do they, these politicians, etc, even care, one jot, about the people they are egging on, egging on to suit their own agenda".

I think a good start would be them joining in to seek solutions instead of inflaming people further.

These communities have been in decline for a very long time, since the end of the big industries. And it's right to point out - to say jobs in McDonalds or packing boxes in warehouses - aren't satisfying, but finding an answer to that one very difficult.

Truth about immigration is not liked on this thread.

Freya5

Wyllow3

I agree with Dickens

"More worrying are the high-profile politicians and others who subtly - and not always so subtly - fan the the flames of their fury. Do they, these politicians, etc, even care, one jot, about the people they are egging on, egging on to suit their own agenda".

I think a good start would be them joining in to seek solutions instead of inflaming people further.

These communities have been in decline for a very long time, since the end of the big industries. And it's right to point out - to say jobs in McDonalds or packing boxes in warehouses - aren't satisfying, but finding an answer to that one very difficult.

Truth about immigration is not liked on this thread.

Which truth do you mean?

Mollygo

Dickens
But it doesn't deal with the underlying problem, which is ignorance and deprivation. And nothing is being, or has been, done about that.

That’s true, possibly because no one can think of a viable solution.

Not all the rioters were uneducated, but the number of previous convictions for violence makes it seem as if they were just looking for something to do to express their general dissatisfaction.

More worrying is the fact that he was so consumed by his anger that even knowing his behaviour was being filmed didn’t stop him. In that state of “don’t care”, what would work to stop him?

But where to start?

Feeling aggrieved that however hard you work, that is, if you can get a job, you’re never going to get anywhere is soul destroying.

Away from the riots, people being interviewed on the news about the impossibility of saving for a deposit whilst rental prices soar, show how desperate things are getting.
If you haven’t even got the money to rent a decent place . . .

So what did the murder of three little girls have to do with that?

And how does destroying/damaging police cars, a library, mosques and looting from shops help all that? People have damaged their own communities.

Mollygo

Many schools have a “values” curriculum, where respect, compassion, trust, politeness and many other values are taught, exemplified and practised.
Useful if they see it evidenced at home as well.
“Do as you would be done by” is replaced at the moment by “Be done by as you did” which some of us will remember from our childhood.

I've taught in many secondary schools and have not seen a "values curriculum" being taught explicity, nor do the values in some schools indicate that is being taught implicitly.

Wyllow3

I agree with Dickens

"More worrying are the high-profile politicians and others who subtly - and not always so subtly - fan the the flames of their fury. Do they, these politicians, etc, even care, one jot, about the people they are egging on, egging on to suit their own agenda".

I think a good start would be them joining in to seek solutions instead of inflaming people further.

These communities have been in decline for a very long time, since the end of the big industries. And it's right to point out - to say jobs in McDonalds or packing boxes in warehouses - aren't satisfying, but finding an answer to that one very difficult.

These communities have been in decline for a very long time, since the end of the big industries. And it's right to point out - to say jobs in McDonalds or packing boxes in warehouses - aren't satisfying, but finding an answer to that one very difficult.

I think deprivation and dead-end jobs are bearable - if they are short-lived experiences. But if that is all there is stretching out in front of you for the rest of your life, then it must feel pretty hopeless, even if you are only aware of it subconsciously.

Obviously, not all of those taking part in these riots are in that position - they were not all uneducated louts looking to create trouble.

... and none of this excuses the violence. But this idea that these sentences are going to solve the underlying problems that do exist, worries me. Yes, I'm sure some individuals will think twice before taking part in these kinds of riots, but what about those that didn't get caught? Is this the end of it all? How long before there's another excuse for the 'patriotic' foot-soldiers, wearing their St George's flag like a tunic, to take part in a violent 'protest'?

The government have made a good job of treating the symptoms, but not the cause.

Growstuff, I was addressing Dickens’ post. I never claimed it had anything to do with the stabbings in Southport any more than she did. Nor did I say that that behaviour helped.
Re the values curriculum, I work in Primary, not Secondary so I bow to your knowledge of KS3 onwards.

I decided to look up a values curriculum and found it here

www.gov.uk/government/news/guidance-on-promoting-british-values-in-schools-published

But I guess that different schools have taken different paths on it?

There is a PDF with details, but it includes "
This is non-statutory advice from the Department for Education.

So we could have had different experiences of or about it?

In my ideal world I'd like to see cross party work starting soon instead of it becoming a battle ground.

The trouble with those values is that they are very woolly. The examples given aren't statutory, so schools are free to interpret them however they want. In any case, teaching values isn't really the same as ensuring that all pupils play an active part in being responsible and knowledgeable citizens.

If you want to have values and respect you have to be able to enforce those values, there are always going to be some who will try to rebel against them. If they are seen to get away with it others will follow, in schools or society in general there is insufficient resources given to enforcing rules, laws and behavior.

It doesnt matter which rule you are breaking, speeding in a car, taking drugs, bullying your classmates, getting away with it is more exciting than obeying the rules. If you push the boundaries the penalties need to be harsh, as the rioters are finding out.

growstuff

Freya5

Wyllow3

I agree with Dickens

"More worrying are the high-profile politicians and others who subtly - and not always so subtly - fan the the flames of their fury. Do they, these politicians, etc, even care, one jot, about the people they are egging on, egging on to suit their own agenda".

I think a good start would be them joining in to seek solutions instead of inflaming people further.

These communities have been in decline for a very long time, since the end of the big industries. And it's right to point out - to say jobs in McDonalds or packing boxes in warehouses - aren't satisfying, but finding an answer to that one very difficult.

Truth about immigration is not liked on this thread.

Which truth do you mean?

There is a divide between posters as to what ‘the truth’ about immigration is. Those of us who don’t share your truth, Freya, could equally claim the truth about immigration is disliked by others who contribute to the discussion.

The values curriculum where I work is detailed and rigorous. Children are expected to know them and practice them and are rewarded and praised for doing that, but as David49 says,

If you want to have values and respect you have to be able to enforce those values, there are always going to be some who will try to rebel against them

There are always children and parents who don’t see any use in the teaching of those values, who dismiss them as woolly and who say it doesn’t happen in all schools so what’s the point. However, it has to start somewhere and starting with a small step is better than doing nothing.

The truth is that we need migration because there are not enough willing workers to provide the services we want, that is probably even more true of the US if they didn’t have migrants the economy would grind to a standstill.

The UK certainly needs to control migration better, a better system of legal migration would help a lot.

David49
Re the US. Have you seen the film A Day Without a Mexican
It’s a spoof film but with a serious message.

www.google.com/search?q=Amazon+Prime+%2B+A+day+without+a+Mexican&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:b6ad345a,vid:cYJcfhxMkrQ,st:0

David49

The truth is that we need migration because there are not enough willing workers to provide the services we want, that is probably even more true of the US if they didn’t have migrants the economy would grind to a standstill.

The UK certainly needs to control migration better, a better system of legal migration would help a lot.

The UK already controls 'legal' migration.

What do you think they are doing wrongly in the 'control' system?

What do you think would make it better?

From what I’ve read, a high percentage of those sentenced so far are not people with unblemished records, and many have been imprisoned for previous offences. It’s made me wonder if there is an element of people actually wanting to return to jail, and whether rehabilitation and education will have as much impact as we’d all like it to, particularly as so many of them are not young men, but people in their late thirties, forties and fifties.

On googling, it's hard to get UK information. Quora offers,

"Some people may return to prison after being released due to not having a solid support system in place upon their release, having no resources or services at their disposal, or being so shunned and rejected by society that they are denied access to a job, a place to live, etc"

This relates to whether there is adequate support in place after prison, which I doubt.

MaizieD

David49

The truth is that we need migration because there are not enough willing workers to provide the services we want, that is probably even more true of the US if they didn’t have migrants the economy would grind to a standstill.

The UK certainly needs to control migration better, a better system of legal migration would help a lot.

The UK already controls 'legal' migration.

What do you think they are doing wrongly in the 'control' system?

What do you think would make it better?

Enough resources has to be put into stopping the migrants launching boats in France.

AND

A proper system where genuine Assylum Seekers can settle in the UK it’s not unreasonable to expect the UK to take its share, we need a system that is seen to work fairly

Casdon

From what I’ve read, a high percentage of those sentenced so far are not people with unblemished records, and many have been imprisoned for previous offences. It’s made me wonder if there is an element of people actually wanting to return to jail, and whether rehabilitation and education will have as much impact as we’d all like it to, particularly as so many of them are not young men, but people in their late thirties, forties and fifties.

If you have a prison record life is very hard, you can’t get a decent job and nobody trusts you, only a minority are helped by rehabilitation, prison is no deterrent if your life is already rubbish it’s almost respite.

Prisons are universities of crime and if you’re not a drug addict you will be when you leave, then just claim benefits, and idle your life away, if you want something you cant afford, steal it, the risk of being caught is very low.

The prison population has never been higher a product of our liberal undisciplined society, with no respect for anything.