These lengthy prison sentences for rioters

Well, I followed up Judge Linford' s excellent comments, Maybee, and Mr Google and a little calculation gave me an approximate figure for this gentleman's thirty years incarceration and arrived at £1.5 million...
I am happy to have this corrected, but even if it's " just" a million pounds, it's a staggering sum.
His outrage at the cost of asylum seekers seems somewhat unjustified (!) unless in his area the LA is putting asylum seekers up in The Dorchester.

MayBee70

Freya5

Casdon

I have reported your post Freya5. Personal insults are completely unnecessary, not to mention mean.

Yet someone gets away with calling me "evil". Glad you're happy with the hypocrisy .

Oh c’mon Freya. The comments from you and Oreo had me in tears years yesterday so that’s quite hypocritical.

Excuse me!!
Is there one GN law for you and a different one for everybody else?
Can you say anything you like on here? Keep personal insults off the thread is my advice.

Doodledog

Good point. I'm guessing that the cost of keeping a criminal in jail is higher than keeping a refugee in a basic 'hotel'.

It must be much higher given all the staff and overheads.

Apparently we jail a higher percentage of people than anywhere else in Europe, or so I’ve read.
Sometimes prison is the only answer but given that there’s no meaningful rehabilitation after or during the stay there are better ways to deal with some in my view.

It was alarming to read that a very dangerous rapist, who left one of his victims minutes from death, having gone on a rampage of breaking and entering, stabbing victims and committing sexual assaults is to be let out after 12 years, he was only 22 when he committed these atrocities, so there's plenty of life in this person who is still a youngish man. There was another such criminal a while back who committed similar crimes on his release. I'd hate to think that a potentially threatening, murderous even, criminal and others like him are being unleashed to make way for the new wave of those about to be incarcerated. I've no doubt that some of the rioters need a short sharp shock as a deterrent but not at the expense of releasing psychopaths back into society.

No rapists, psychopaths or violent offenders are being released in order to house rioters. This has been said over and over on these threads. Only those serving short sentences for non-violent offences will be eligible for early release.

Thanks for reminding us of reality doodle

Terribull- I read about the shocking are you refer to. When Blair introduced the now defunct indeterminate sentences, it was aimed at that kind of offender. Dangerous psychopaths who society needs protecting from. Presumably he doesn’t fit the hospital criteria but he shouldn’t have been released imo.

As discussed on previous prison threads, when the state of overcrowding was revealed, Operation Dawn had stated clearly,

"““I understand some may feel worried but I can assure them that we are taking every possible precaution,” she said, citing exclusions in relation to those serving sentences for the most dangerous crimes, including sexual and serious violent offences.
This will also apply to offences linked to domestic violence, including stalking.”

"https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/jul/18/prisoners-released-early-england-and-wales#:~:text=Prisoners%20who%20do%20not%20fall%20into%20exempt%20categories%2C%20such%20as,sentences%2C%20rather%20than%2050%25.

I never thought I’d say this but ….I’m thinking about some kind of military-discipline-type intervention to reclaim these youngsters while still at school?

Those failed by our education system?

Rather than the kind of unit that already exists for disruptive pupils something more positive, focused, etc.

At KS3 perhaps where instead of following the national curriculum and teacher led, something more in the line of a Cadet Corps? Run by professional soldiers? Police? Professional tradesmen?

I’m just thinking off the top of my head here but something needs to be done to help those at risk of ending up in prison surely?

Just to clarify, Operation Early Dawn was triggered by the previous government in May. There was cross party consensus.

www.lawsociety.org.uk/en/topics/news-articles/operation-early-dawn-update-criminal-justice

Quokka

I never thought I’d say this but ….I’m thinking about some kind of military-discipline-type intervention to reclaim these youngsters while still at school?

Those failed by our education system?

Rather than the kind of unit that already exists for disruptive pupils something more positive, focused, etc.

At KS3 perhaps where instead of following the national curriculum and teacher led, something more in the line of a Cadet Corps? Run by professional soldiers? Police? Professional tradesmen?

I’m just thinking off the top of my head here but something needs to be done to help those at risk of ending up in prison surely?

So they would still be violent, but it would be more disciplined and skilled violence?

Quokka
At KS3 perhaps where instead of following the national curriculum and teacher led, something more in the line of a Cadet Corps? Run by professional soldiers? Police? Professional tradesmen?
Sounds a good idea, especially if it was a compulsory part of the curriculum. I know it would be difficult to fit in time wise, but it would give students a taste of discipline, and experiences that might be useful for them.
My KS3 DGD is a Navy cadet, but she had to compete for a place in that group, and they meet out of school hours. You can’t make out of school hours compulsory.

I certainly think the trouble with the national curriculum is that its its academically based, and we've lost the trade skills or preparation for trades skills that we used to have in education Quokka.

Yes Casdon - just before an election was called for.

I must admit I wasn't aware of the dire situation in prisons through neglect - just another reason I think for the hasty calling of the election before it became apparent just how dire things had become and little being done.

I'm sorry if this has already been mentioned but people who work in education who are student facing have to complete something called prevent training. It is to identify young people, often vulnerable, who may be at risk as being radicalised. This includes organisations like EDL. The threat to the public is the same from these groups as it is from other extreme groups. Why should they get special treatment?

I must admit I wasn't aware of the dire situation in prisons through neglect - just another reason I think for the hasty calling of the election before it became apparent just how dire things had become and little being done.

Prisons have suffered from funding cuts, just like many other public services. I think part of the problem is that improving prisons and ways of rehabilitating prisoners isn't a vote winner.

I knew things were not good in prisons (I am a Guardian reader, after all 😁) but reading Rory Stewart's book, On the Edge' in which he talks about his experiences as a prisons minister was an eye opener. It's a shame it's not available as a standalone piece for people to read.

Absolutely appalling behaviour and the sentences might make those thugs see that their behaviour is abhorent and will not be tolerated. Hopefully they might be made to do some of the clearing up of the mess they caused. I would be totally ashamed if anyone in my family behaved in such a way. There has been too much putting one group against another group and trying to blame specific groups instead of acknowledging that the lack of effort in trying to bring people together and the deliberate cutting down and diminishing of any financial support for schemes that would have helped to improve matters . But none of that excuses such dreadful behaviour .

There has been too much putting one group against another group. Sadly this seems to permeate political discussion atm, what drives us apart not brings us together.

I think that's a great point, madeleine. Young against old, rich against poor, North against South, who is 'costing the NHS' and who isn't, drivers against cyclists - it goes on and on, and that's without the ever-present racism, sexism, religious intolerance etc.

It would be great if we could have a Minister for Inclusion, with a remit to look at the ways groups are pitted against one another, and counter dis (or mis) information. It would be a difficult role, as nobody wants to see censorship, and 'fairness' is not achieved by having a spokesperson for every group on every broadcast as happens with party representatives near election time, but I think it would be useful.

Currently, if someone wants to cut services to one group they can point to how they need to spend on another and get away with it on that basis. That might seem fair, but the next step is often to cut services to the second group by comparing them with a different one. Intergenerational matters are a case in point. Pitting pensioners against parents is never going to make sense, as the groups are different, with differing lives and life experiences, but one group can always make a case against the other taking priority, so nobody wins.

Doodledog

I think that's a great point, madeleine. Young against old, rich against poor, North against South, who is 'costing the NHS' and who isn't, drivers against cyclists - it goes on and on, and that's without the ever-present racism, sexism, religious intolerance etc.

It would be great if we could have a Minister for Inclusion, with a remit to look at the ways groups are pitted against one another, and counter dis (or mis) information. It would be a difficult role, as nobody wants to see censorship, and 'fairness' is not achieved by having a spokesperson for every group on every broadcast as happens with party representatives near election time, but I think it would be useful.

Currently, if someone wants to cut services to one group they can point to how they need to spend on another and get away with it on that basis. That might seem fair, but the next step is often to cut services to the second group by comparing them with a different one. Intergenerational matters are a case in point. Pitting pensioners against parents is never going to make sense, as the groups are different, with differing lives and life experiences, but one group can always make a case against the other taking priority, so nobody wins.

Young against old, rich against poor, North against South, who is 'costing the NHS' and who isn't, drivers against cyclists - it goes on and on, and that's without the ever-present racism, sexism, religious intolerance etc.

These economic, cultural and intergeneration 'wars' will continue until the electorate realise that they are a deliberate unwritten policy of government - divide and rule.

Why? Well imagine if the young and the old, the North and South, NHS incumbents, cyclists and motorists, all decided to band together and challenge the government of the day who are, basically, the interface between the very very wealthy elite who hold the capital and the power.

There are more of us than there are of them.

What would happen?

That's what I was getting at.

With luck, the new government won't continue to be so divisive - I hope so, but time will tell.

Ilovecheese

Quokka

I never thought I’d say this but ….I’m thinking about some kind of military-discipline-type intervention to reclaim these youngsters while still at school?

Those failed by our education system?

Rather than the kind of unit that already exists for disruptive pupils something more positive, focused, etc.

At KS3 perhaps where instead of following the national curriculum and teacher led, something more in the line of a Cadet Corps? Run by professional soldiers? Police? Professional tradesmen?

I’m just thinking off the top of my head here but something needs to be done to help those at risk of ending up in prison surely?

So they would still be violent, but it would be more disciplined and skilled violence?

Ilovecheese - if they had a skill under their belts, they would be less likely to be disaffected and rebellious. Those who are disruptive in schools are mostly the less academic ones, who have nothing to feel any achievement about, and don't see any point in being co-operative. They ned skills that they can't learn in a classroom, and people to learn them from who are not associated in their minds with their failure in the three Rs.

The prisons are full of the illiterate.

Doodledog

That's what I was getting at.

With luck, the new government won't continue to be so divisive - I hope so, but time will tell.

With luck, the new government won't continue to be so divisive

We can hope.

However, those divisions will continue to be stoked by various media - it's in their interests to do so.

We closed big institutions for people with learning difficulties for good reason. The same with the large residential schools which were often used to prop up children in chaotic, neglectful families.
What we didn’t do, was use the money ‘saved’ to improve community services for these groups and we are reaping what was sowed.
This government has inherited an unholy mess. Every aspect of our public services designated. It’s unforgivable and the social costs are immeasurable, as are the financial costs needed to begin the slow process of building good public services that improve society.
None so blind as those who refuse to look at the evidence in other scandi/Northern European countries where a less punitive, more rehabilitative approach to offenders,especially young offenders is taken

The other obvious need is to have good services and societal expectations that reduce the possibility of offending and substance misuse

I taught disaffected 16 year olds in what seems like a previous life, and one of the biggest challenges was getting them to think beyond 'them' and 'us'. It starts very young, so often by the time they are ready to leave school they have missed a lot of education because they see it as being for 'them' - swots, snobs, nerds etc - people who deserve to be bullied and ridiculed for trying to succeed. Kudos goes to those who disrupt classes, 'have a laugh' and get into trouble, and peer approval is so important, particularly in a group that sets itself against having the approval of the school and other authority.

Streaming can make this worse, but sometimes it makes sense to allow those who want to work the chance to do so without disruptive people in the same room.

Obviously a lot of this starts at home, where parents might not want their children to 'get above themselves', which might happen if they get a decent job and the opportunity to move away.

I don't know if military training is the answer (would that provide a trained force for malign influences to draw on?) but I agree that teaching trades would be useful if it isn't concentrated on 'lower' streams, which it so often is.

I agree Iam64. There are lots of people with autism and LDs in prison, they even have specialised provision