These lengthy prison sentences for rioters

David49

MaizieD

David49

The truth is that we need migration because there are not enough willing workers to provide the services we want, that is probably even more true of the US if they didn’t have migrants the economy would grind to a standstill.

The UK certainly needs to control migration better, a better system of legal migration would help a lot.

The UK already controls 'legal' migration.

What do you think they are doing wrongly in the 'control' system?

What do you think would make it better?

Enough resources has to be put into stopping the migrants launching boats in France.

AND

A proper system where genuine Assylum Seekers can settle in the UK it’s not unreasonable to expect the UK to take its share, we need a system that is seen to work fairly

You said 'a better system of legal migration' would help. That's what I was talking about.

I agree that we need to improve the way we deal with the irregular migrants, work on legal routes, for a start, but I think we have to keep discourse about the existing 'legal' immigration separate from the irregular because people tend to conflate the two.

There is virtually no rehabilitation happening in prisons sadly

mumofmadboys

There is virtually no rehabilitation happening in prisons sadly

Maybe because no one knows what would be effective apart from education.
What would GN’s like to see happening? What do they think would be useful in terms of rehabilitation?
If any government had the will to do something, what should they do?

Once they have got a prison record it’s too late for most, action needs to ensure the behavior is better and laws obeyed, respect for authority respect for others.
That starts in the home and in schools

Prison reform advocates

"The most successful types of programs are psychological, occupational-based, and education-focused programs, which focus on the issues of the prisoner to help them improve themselves and become ready to re-enter society"

Norway has the least recidivism and its programmes

"Rehabilitation is one main aim in prison policy, along with punishment. It includes measures like work, education, programs, drug rehabilitation, gym and training. Health care, social welfare services, discussion groups; poetry, music, theatre, and radio productions are also part of this.

Question is, resourcing.

I presume that’s why the government have appointed James Timpson, because his family lead the way in work based rehabilitation for ex prisoners?

Wyllow3

Prison reform advocates

"The most successful types of programs are psychological, occupational-based, and education-focused programs, which focus on the issues of the prisoner to help them improve themselves and become ready to re-enter society"

Norway has the least recidivism and its programmes

"Rehabilitation is one main aim in prison policy, along with punishment. It includes measures like work, education, programs, drug rehabilitation, gym and training. Health care, social welfare services, discussion groups; poetry, music, theatre, and radio productions are also part of this.

Question is, resourcing.

Question is, resourcing.
Resourcing in terms of funding and the people to provide all those rehabilitation programs.
And then you’re back to the fact that people who do stay out of trouble and don’t go to prison can’t get healthcare, social welfare services gym and training, or even afford food without going to food banks.

It's a catch 22. (I don't disagree Molly, btw, at all)

It costs a lot of money to keep someone in prison for a year, and if we only turn out constant recidivists the problem just increases.

Wyllow3

It's a catch 22. (I don't disagree Molly, btw, at all)

It costs a lot of money to keep someone in prison for a year, and if we only turn out constant recidivists the problem just increases.

So what do we do?

I'm waiting to see what Timpson can come up with as I genuinely don't know how to balance need and necessity and the £££££.

At the risk of being challenged for saying so - I believe we have a whole 'under' class of people who are deprived, educationally, economically and culturally; who are basically totally ignored - until something like these riots surfaces. Then they are 'dealt' with - a prison sentence which is supposed to make them and those like them think twice about taking part in any future riots

But it doesn't deal with the underlying problem, which is ignorance and deprivation. And nothing is being, or has been, done about that

This>

You dont know the underclass until you live among them.

Mollygo

Wyllow3

It's a catch 22. (I don't disagree Molly, btw, at all)

It costs a lot of money to keep someone in prison for a year, and if we only turn out constant recidivists the problem just increases.

So what do we do?

The sensible thing to do is to ensure that everyone gets access to healthcare, social welfare services, gym and training (or other leisure facilities) and can afford to eat without charity.

This might mean us all paying more taxes, but it has to be worth going to work, and currently it isn't - nobody should have to rely on food banks and top-up benefits when they are working, and nobody should be no better off working full-time as part-time.

"nobody should be no better off working full-time as part-time."

I am not so sure about this Doodledog. people who work part time very often have caring responsibilities, which save the taxpayer a lot of money. I think it is probably more economic in the long run to top up their income with social security.

That's a fair point. I wasn't thinking so much about saving the taxpayer as the frustration people must feel when they work full-time and get the same as a neighbour who works part-time and gets top-ups, but you're right that there needs to be flexibility in the system.

The sensible thing to do is to ensure that everyone gets access to healthcare, social welfare services, gym and training (or other leisure facilities) and can afford to eat without charity.

Yes. But is there anyone on here who truly believes that at none of any tax rises will go into the pockets of those who do not need it, who know how to work the system or who are wealthy enough to employ someone to reduce any impact the tax rises might have?

We need more focus on preventing people going to prison. Scandi countries, the Netherlands all invest in early Years and public services. Their less punative more supportive approach is more effective and better for society than our more punative approach.

We need to invest in Early Years. The evidence from the sure start generation was positive. As was predicted when investment in programmes was funded.

It needs front loading, support services, drug/alcohol/mental health along side sure start type centres which did good work with vulnerable, hard to reach families.
Austerity is costing us a fortune e

Perhaps more emphasis on restorative justice?
We need as a society to be more forgiving and caring to those who have lost their way. Everyone deserves a second chance.
My son is a prison officer. Some of the stories he tells me makes me want to weep. For example a 19 year old prisoner bought up in care from birth- prison was his 31 st placement in life.
Education and job training are essential and learning how to constructively use leisure time. But it all costs a lot of money.

Mollygo

^The sensible thing to do is to ensure that everyone gets access to healthcare, social welfare services, gym and training (or other leisure facilities) and can afford to eat without charity.^

Yes. But is there anyone on here who truly believes that at none of any tax rises will go into the pockets of those who do not need it, who know how to work the system or who are wealthy enough to employ someone to reduce any impact the tax rises might have?

No, there will always be those who wriggle out of paying tax - and you're right that they tend to be those who can afford to buy advice and expertise to protect their wealth. It's inevitable, but whilst there should be robust measures in place to tighten loopholes and catch evaders, the fact that such people exist shouldn't be a reason not to try to make life better for everyone else, and give those at the bottom of the pile more of a stake in society.

Doodledog I agree, but cynically I don’t think it’ll happen like that and those who will pay will include those for whom life is already a struggle.
Which means putting those just above the bottom of the pile in danger of moving down, not up.

Wyllow3

Prison reform advocates

"The most successful types of programs are psychological, occupational-based, and education-focused programs, which focus on the issues of the prisoner to help them improve themselves and become ready to re-enter society"

Norway has the least recidivism and its programmes

"Rehabilitation is one main aim in prison policy, along with punishment. It includes measures like work, education, programs, drug rehabilitation, gym and training. Health care, social welfare services, discussion groups; poetry, music, theatre, and radio productions are also part of this.

Question is, resourcing.

Norway has the least recidivism and its programmes

The thing is, Norway invests in its people - even those that end up in prison.

For example, it didn't splurge its sovereign wealth fund from gas and oil on tax cuts for the already wealthy, nor on benefits for the unemployed - as Thatcher did after 'de-industrialisation' in favour of the financial sector and services industry. The fund is squirreled away for future generations who will rely on the tech industries, etc, when the gas and oil industry inevitably declines.

In 2019, Norway also banned zero-hour contracts. It does not accept that you can contract someone to work for a business without guarantee of work or pay.

And there are other things - like work-life balance, etc.

People think Norway is a socialist paradise - it isn't, It functions on strong Capitalist principles, but believes that the welfare - education, health, etc, of its citizens, is important.

I agree with you about Norway. I don't have any faith that Rachel Reeves believes in our welfare as a country though. Austerity damages our welfare and costs more in the long term, but that seems to be the direction she wants to go in.

It needs to be from the cradle to the grave - everybodynhaving a basic standard of living that's affordable, and can be kept warm.

Everyone having access to education of a decent standard, and everyone being paid enough to pay their way; not to line the pockets of others, such as slum landlords.

Prompt action for those who haven't got the basics, and help for those who are falling behind.

I don't think Reeves wants to take that route. There's so much to fix from years of austerity, and they have never pretended we can rapidly lift ourselves out of the mess left behind. What you say just above, Doodledog.

And none of that made sense...

It did, MissAdventure