Keir Starmer aka Captain Flip Flop

GG13 What I find thoroughly ridiculous is why you feel the critique of our former govt wasn’t justified??

Some terrible terrible things happened, laws were broken, people died unnecessarily, many MPs embroiled in scandals, money misappropriated. Many many people suffered the last 14 years and still feel bitter, angry and upset.

This govt has had 6 weeks thus far and have made a decision about WFA which many of us feel is unfair to those pensioners not on PC having just a little more than the threshold. I’m sure we all hope that something g is done in mitigation for those affected.

Rather than “share” on FB, which stirs people up and achieves nothing, why don’t those affected start an online petition (I’ll happily sign it) and all write to their MPs, this is far more likely to help get it discussed in the HoC than using Social Media.

We who support the LP, will certainly be holding them to account

maddyone

Indeed GG. I’m in the lucky position of not having to worry about it, but I’ve seen estimates that two million pensioners will find the winter very difficult, particularly if it’s a cold winter. Some of those two million pensioners are on GN. Let’s not forget that.

I've read posts from one or two of them.

The energy price cap is going up again in October, I believe. So they will probably have higher bills. The posts indicate that they will be in a precarious position.

And, as another poster pointed out. Pensioners spend more time at home and often feel the cold more acutely - especially if they have health conditions.

I'm OK (just about anyway), but I know that others will be watching every penny and have it accounted for.

I know it's something of a cliché - but why do the poorest and often most vulnerable always have to pay for these supposed 'black holes'? They - we - have no control over what happens to the economy, why aren't the movers and shakers who create these economic crises the ones who pay?

Is Liz Truss going to suffer financially, for example?

I guess we'll just have to wait for the budget.

That is why sometimes their posts get personnel because they take the push back personally, which of course it isn’t if it being argued properly.

Political nerds understand the rules generally I think. It is posters who have a single issue point to make who are not generally up to speed with the way politics work and get p….d off when challenged.

GrannyGravy13

GN is so toxic at the moment.

I find it ridiculous that the Conservatives have had to put up with all manner of insults, but lo and behold Labour are elected and their GN supporters turn into delicate little flowers, who we are unable to comment on…

Report button frenzy…

I’m not sure if you’re referring to the person I reported this morning GrannyGravy13, and posted that I had done so. I reported her for a very personal attack on another poster, not because she said anything about Labour. If I see personal attacks that are vicious I always report them and say so, regardless of who did it or to who, and I’d be uncomfortable to be told not to do that, because I think it’s very wrong.

If it’s about politics then anything is fair game, the best form of defence is to attack back.

Yes I am waiting with interest for the spending review and budget. I shall be listening very closely to Reeves rhetoric because, even if she sticks to the current Tory fiscal policy (she absolutely doesn’t need to, nor imo would it be advisable) I would like to see what in her opinion the future will look like.

Me, too Whitewavemark2.

Having voted for this government, I'm definitely going to be holding them to account.

maddyone

Indeed GG. I’m in the lucky position of not having to worry about it, but I’ve seen estimates that two million pensioners will find the winter very difficult, particularly if it’s a cold winter. Some of those two million pensioners are on GN. Let’s not forget that.

👏👏👏👏

maddyone

Cossy I’m not a Labour supporter (although as centre voter I agree with some of their policies) and I do think you’re pretty balanced.
I don’t like seeing people banned, but I do think deleting a comment is necessary sometimes, especially if a poster makes a personal attack (which I was subjected to yesterday on a different thread) and I was very upset by it.

None should ever ever make vicious, rude, vitriolic comments against any other person here.

I too would report something if it happened to me, so I don’t blame you.

I do find some the comments/accusations on here ott, my view now is we have a Labour govt, they’ll be in power for a few years, let’s hope things improve.

Things didn’t improve for us under the previous govt, and for many many people things got worse. That’s factual.

Dickens

I'm just curious about this "black hole" that our new Chancellor is unveiling.

Obviously, I am not an economist, which will be obvious from some of my previous observations on GN. But I do have a questioning mind.

For instance, which accountancy rules are used to arrive at this government debt? Because from what I've been reading (no, not on Facebook or YouTube), if you change the accountancy rule, you can, ahem, adjust the 'black hole' accordingly - or even remove the debt.

And then, there's government 'forecasts', so a small increase in forecasted government borrowing can increase the debt.

Mr Calvert Jump (now there's a name for you!), senior lecturer in the School of Accounting, Finance and Economics, has said that

"There is now a consensus among economists that austerity does significant damage to an economy's potential, undermining growth, as the experience of the last decade in Britain has shown us"

Now pensioners just above the PC cut off may not be big spenders, but I'd wager their money more or less goes straight back into the economy. Any government plan that causes anyone to tighten their belts, is just plain old Austerity - again.

During the pandemic/lockdown(s) government pumped money into the economy - much of which I believe ended up in the pockets of the wealthiest. Where do they spend their wealth - conspicuously? Designer handbags? Jewellery? I think they spend it more quietly - on education, ensuring the continuation of the privileges of wealth, on health, property and investments. And their accountants, who accommodate their need to legitimately avoid tax as far as possible.

And, as the rich become richer and the rest of us remain static or poorer - where is the money coming from to grow the economy, as Starmer intends? If removal of the WFA from the above PC cut off is the beginning of more Austerity - or whatever his government decides to call it - if people are going to have less disposable income, where is this growth going to come from? Will we be an attractive option for investment?

I'm not quite sure where I'm going with this - except to say that I do not accept the 'black hole' claim by RR - because it's a £number/sum that can be +/- depending on which accountancy rules are used and economic 'forecasts',

MaizieD, where are you?

Yes I am waiting with interest for the spending review and budget. I shall be listening very closely to Reeves rhetoric because, even if she sticks to the current Tory fiscal policy (she absolutely doesn’t need to, nor imo would it be advisable) I would like to see what in her opinion the future will look like.

I'm just curious about this "black hole" that our new Chancellor is unveiling.

Obviously, I am not an economist, which will be obvious from some of my previous observations on GN. But I do have a questioning mind.

For instance, which accountancy rules are used to arrive at this government debt? Because from what I've been reading (no, not on Facebook or YouTube), if you change the accountancy rule, you can, ahem, adjust the 'black hole' accordingly - or even remove the debt.

And then, there's government 'forecasts', so a small increase in forecasted government borrowing can increase the debt.

Mr Calvert Jump (now there's a name for you!), senior lecturer in the School of Accounting, Finance and Economics, has said that

"There is now a consensus among economists that austerity does significant damage to an economy's potential, undermining growth, as the experience of the last decade in Britain has shown us"

Now pensioners just above the PC cut off may not be big spenders, but I'd wager their money more or less goes straight back into the economy. Any government plan that causes anyone to tighten their belts, is just plain old Austerity - again.

During the pandemic/lockdown(s) government pumped money into the economy - much of which I believe ended up in the pockets of the wealthiest. Where do they spend their wealth - conspicuously? Designer handbags? Jewellery? I think they spend it more quietly - on education, ensuring the continuation of the privileges of wealth, on health, property and investments. And their accountants, who accommodate their need to legitimately avoid tax as far as possible.

And, as the rich become richer and the rest of us remain static or poorer - where is the money coming from to grow the economy, as Starmer intends? If removal of the WFA from the above PC cut off is the beginning of more Austerity - or whatever his government decides to call it - if people are going to have less disposable income, where is this growth going to come from? Will we be an attractive option for investment?

I'm not quite sure where I'm going with this - except to say that I do not accept the 'black hole' claim by RR - because it's a £number/sum that can be +/- depending on which accountancy rules are used and economic 'forecasts',

MaizieD, where are you?

maddyone 👍

Indeed GG. I’m in the lucky position of not having to worry about it, but I’ve seen estimates that two million pensioners will find the winter very difficult, particularly if it’s a cold winter. Some of those two million pensioners are on GN. Let’s not forget that.

I haven’t posted on this thread because I’m pretty relaxed about Tories criticising the government.

I would be astounded if they didn’t. Some of it is a bit premature, but hey Ho.

They have, if all goes well 5 years at least to hone their skills.

So hone away folks😄😄😄

Cossy I’m not a Labour supporter (although as centre voter I agree with some of their policies) and I do think you’re pretty balanced.
I don’t like seeing people banned, but I do think deleting a comment is necessary sometimes, especially if a poster makes a personal attack (which I was subjected to yesterday on a different thread) and I was very upset by it.

Exactly maddyone , whether or not the Conservatives would have removed it we will never know, the bottom line is that Labour have removed it.

They have given Pensioners four pension payments to save for their winter fuel bills. How are they meant to save when many are living hand to mouth as it is!

At the end of the day, the OP posted a link showing Keir Starmer saying that he wouldn’t remove WFA from pensioners.
Last week WFA was removed from pensioners.
That is what the whole thread is about.

I’m a LP supporter, and like to think I’m fairly balanced.

They are humans, they will make mistakes, we will call them out, as we should.

I have mixed feelings about WFA as I’m happy to forfeit mine, but unhappy at the thought of pensions being pushed into a “eat or heat” situation, which would be terrible.

I wasn’t aware someone else has been banned, but for the record, 1) I don’t want to see anyone banned, including those who have been and 2) I’ve never reported anyone on GNs.

GN is so toxic at the moment.

I find it ridiculous that the Conservatives have had to put up with all manner of insults, but lo and behold Labour are elected and their GN supporters turn into delicate little flowers, who we are unable to comment on…

Report button frenzy…

I meant I asked for a post to be deleted

I agree with you Joseann.
I’m very upset about the poster who has been banned this morning. I don’t even know what was written that was deleted because I wasn’t on GN earlier to see it. It can only be described as some people or someone because we don’t know know who.
I had a post deleted yesterday (on a different thread) but that was because it was a really horrible personal attack on me. And it upset me a lot due to circumstances in my family. That’s why I didn’t come on GN this morning.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

TheHappyGardener

Thank you Primrose53 and BevSec and others for your supportive messages. I’ve been to work for a couple of hours this afternoon, mulled things over in my head, caught up with comments on here and have decided I’m not going to leave GN just because my views are different to some of the more vocal posters. I’m entitled to my views just as they are entitled to theirs and I certainly don’t think there was anything wrong with my post! If this stirs up the hornets’ nest again, my apologies - I won’t be responding to any more posts on this subject.

👏👏👏👏👏👏 So glad you are staying Happy Gardener.
Absolutely nothing wrong with your post, it gives a bit of balance to these usually one-sided discussions.

TheHappyGardener

Blimey …. at no point did I infer anyone HAD to share it, I just thought it would be interesting to some …. each to their own of course

Oh dear Happy Gardener, did you not realise just how many on here belong to the Keir Starmer fan club

Btw I'm happy to share on Facebook but I don't know how to

Mollygo

x.com/actionbrexit/status/1821506730527781315?s=46&t=O5n-YYjDdRFzkV5vLpTIig

In this clip, Starmer is challenging Sunak to withdraw plans to withhold the WFS from pensioners to fill the £ 46billion black hole.

Are you still saying that Starmer did not know about the £46 billion black hole?

Strange that Starmer is now planning to do something we can see/hear him challenging Sunak not to do, to fill a black hole that he knew about when challenging Sunak, but conveniently didn’t know a couple of months later?

If only he would be as quick stopping other things as he did this one. Pensioners are an easy target.

Dinahmo

Given that the Tories were in power for 14 years and Labour for less than 6 weeks I don't understand why some Tory supporters are getting their knickers and/or their pearls in a twist about the way in which the former govt were referred to.

Could you post a reference to where you have seen Tory supporters are getting their knickers and/or their pearls in a twist about the way in which the former govt were referred.

I’ve only seen Labour supporters on here getting their underwear tangled or clutching their non-vegan jewellery because posters are criticising Labour. I haven’t seen them defending the previous government.

Are you really saying no one is allowed to criticise Labour because Labour supporters say so?

First it was only been in for 4 weeks, then 5 weeks and now less than 6 weeks.

IYO, is there a time limit for them to be in power before anyone can express dislike of their actions, their proposals or their leader without being accused of something they haven’t done?