U.S. Presidential debate

nanna8

Well I think we all seem to be in agreement about the candidates for once. Hallelujah. Rare occasion. 🥂

I’m bucking the trend.
I hope Trump wins. 😁

I wouldnt vote if I was American. I couldnt, they both stand for things I find abhorrent.

Would you be happy to tell us why you wish this, FriedGreenTomatoes?

I know you do, from previous posts, it just beggars belief. Why do you hope that? Specifically?

I know it's really hard but people think differently to you, they may for example oppose abortion, they may loathe identity politics, they may think the gender treatment of children in America will be seen in the future as barbaric. They may be wary of a party who lied about Biden (yes I know Trump lies but it's not really a gotcha after the Democrats behaviour) they may surprisingly not want to vote for people who view them as stupid. All sorts of reasons why people may vote Trump.

Well, you just about covered it there Galaxy 🤣

nanna8

Well I think we all seem to be in agreement about the candidates for once. Hallelujah. Rare occasion. 🥂

Many on GN feel as you do.

However, Americans are fairly evenly divided - it's close.

Washington Post by Dan Balz
September 9, 2023 at 12:54 p.m. EDT
In a polarized United States, what divides Democrats and Republicans the most isn’t gender or education or income or religion. It is the issue of race, whether in regard to the backgrounds of the voters who make up the two parties’ coalitions, or the conflicting agendas and priorities each side advocates in the pursuit of power.

I'd also think independence from governmental interference (Socialism as opposed to capitalism). Remember, the colonies valued independence rather than interference - still valued today.

Race (or male/female vote) is Identity politics and as such both parties are continually concerned with getting out this or that group of voters.

The debates around independence seem to me to centre around Federal versus State Law. States can and do control the minutiae of everyday life (like what can be taught in schools, Womens rights to control personal healthcare). Republicans in some states are far from "valuing independence".

In terms of voting for Trump it's my observation from the posters above that we are not so much discussing policy but Trumps suitability and ability to be POTUS, however

Wyllow3 you are right, of course. I'm not sure that Trump has any policies, he's trying to distance himself from abortion rights and project 2025 because he realises that both are problematic for many voters. His debating tactics are based on personal attack and insults rather than policy evidenced by his performance at the debate with KH, unfortunately he's unable to take what he dishes out. His strongest suit is talking about cost of living and inflation however his isolationist policy would add to that. I'd like to hear why people might vote for him because I can't think of any reasons.

Wyllow3 The debates around independence seem to me to centre around Federal versus State Law. States can and do control the minutiae of everyday life (like what can be taught in schools, Womens rights to control personal healthcare). Republicans in some states are far from "valuing independence".

Of course, it's all in how one defines independence.

Republicans seem to prefer to shy away from world affairs - leave NATO, leave the Paris agreement (preferring fracking and pipeline oil). They seem to want their guns - don't see a need for interference of gun control. They appear disinterested in national health insurance (Obamacare or other concepts).

Republicans are perhaps a "pick oneself up by bootstrap" mentality - not caring for cradle to grave social policies. Democrats being opposite.

Someone above said there were equal votes for the Democrats and the Republicans.

Since 2008 the Democrats have won the popular vote.

www.statista.com/statistics/1035521/popular-votes-republican-democratic-parties-since-1828/

RosiesMaw2 I could have written your post. Has the world gone mad!

NotSpaghetti

Someone above said there were equal votes for the Democrats and the Republicans.

Since 2008 the Democrats have won the popular vote.

www.statista.com/statistics/1035521/popular-votes-republican-democratic-parties-since-1828/

Yes - USA citizens have so many different offices to vote on (state stuff, local stuff, federal stuff) -but presidential elections are within the Electoral College system which is the reason for all the to do in the so called "key states"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Electoral_College

year on year it gives the same pro republican bias.

Well - Trump has chickened out of anther debate after the definite feelings that Harris bested him

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn9l9500vg7o

Thats not how he framed it though...

"Donald Trump has ruled out another presidential debate against his rival Kamala Harris before November's election.
He said on Thursday - two days after the pair's first showdown in Philadelphia - that Harris only wanted a rematch because he "clearly" won.
Several instant polls taken after Tuesday's contest indicated voters felt Harris had performed better than her Republican opponent.
Trump added that Harris should instead "focus" on her job as vice-president."

Dickens

MaizieD

even so Harris is gaining support and should win comfortably

I sincerely hope you're right about this, David. UK commentators are being very cagey about predicting a Harris win.

Boris Johnson, writing for the Daily Mail back in January, is fully behind Trump.

Apparently, his return to the White House could be just what the world needs.

It appears that those who oppose Trump are part of the "global wokerati". Whatever that is.

Both Johnson and Trump have their supporters here in the UK. Which I find unsettling.

Johnson is no longer of any consequence, politically, and is noticeable in his absence on any political discussions on TV or radio. It looks to me as if the current Tory administration, such as it is, are ignoring him rather like the daft, embarrassing relative who makes a fool of himself at events.

I agree that UK based supporters of Trump are unsettling, and worrying, they do not even have the excuse of choosing to ignore his repulsive behaviour now, and in the past, because they will benefit financially (like my USA based cousin).

Galaxy

I know it's really hard but people think differently to you, they may for example oppose abortion, they may loathe identity politics, they may think the gender treatment of children in America will be seen in the future as barbaric. They may be wary of a party who lied about Biden (yes I know Trump lies but it's not really a gotcha after the Democrats behaviour) they may surprisingly not want to vote for people who view them as stupid. All sorts of reasons why people may vote Trump.

Difficult though it is, I agree with you Galaxy, some people have different lines in the sand politically ie abortion rights, free trade vs state intervention, isolationist vs internationalist/NATO, and I do get that. BUT, I just could not bring myself to vote for a man who lies, cheats, steals ( from a charity), is a sexual molester etc., all the traits which we have discussed over and over.

My red line, the reason why I loathe the man is his mockery, during his previous election campaign, of the reporter with a chronic disability

www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX9reO3QnUA

Truly disgusting

Oh, thats disgusting!

He is an absolute disgrace.

HousePlantQueen

Galaxy

I know it's really hard but people think differently to you, they may for example oppose abortion, they may loathe identity politics, they may think the gender treatment of children in America will be seen in the future as barbaric. They may be wary of a party who lied about Biden (yes I know Trump lies but it's not really a gotcha after the Democrats behaviour) they may surprisingly not want to vote for people who view them as stupid. All sorts of reasons why people may vote Trump.

Difficult though it is, I agree with you Galaxy, some people have different lines in the sand politically ie abortion rights, free trade vs state intervention, isolationist vs internationalist/NATO, and I do get that. BUT, I just could not bring myself to vote for a man who lies, cheats, steals ( from a charity), is a sexual molester etc., all the traits which we have discussed over and over.

My red line, the reason why I loathe the man is his mockery, during his previous election campaign, of the reporter with a chronic disability

www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX9reO3QnUA

Truly disgusting

... and his mockery of the late John McCain, calling him a "loser". Trump doesn't like service men who were captured. He likes those who don't get captured.

It's there on various videos for anyone to see.

This from a man who avoided military draft 5 times (not uncommon among young men from influential families). A man who never saw active service, deriding one who did. Because he was captured.

I can understand people having differing views on abortion, trade, etc, but I do not understand how anyone can endorse a man who mocks service men, the disabled, makes vulgar references about women, questions the racial heritage of his political opponents and, like an ignorant and uninformed teenager, insists that immigrants eat pet cats and dogs.

It's not the policies, it's the man himself.

Totally agree, Dickens, this is not about politics, or policies it is about the blatant unsuitability of this disgusting man; anyone who supports him needs to have a look deep inside themselves.

NotSpaghetti

Someone above said there were equal votes for the Democrats and the Republicans.

Since 2008 the Democrats have won the popular vote.

www.statista.com/statistics/1035521/popular-votes-republican-democratic-parties-since-1828/

USA voting age population is over 260 million people. The vote hasn't been equal. However, considering numbers the last few elections have been somewhat evenly divided. The "problem" is their electoral college.

Hillary had more popular votes. Trump became POTUS
Gore had more popular votes. Bush became POTUS

The difference is Rural v Big Cities and Education attainment.

Or class as we know it. Those oiks who wont do as they are told.
Johnson isnt a very nice man a lot of the time either yet he still managed to connect with large swathes of the population who felt unrepresented. It's almost as if telling people they are stupid etc doesnt help.

Well telling people they are stupid because they don't agree with your political view, is - well, stupid. Whatever political side you're on.

I've been called "deluded", "naive" and various other things on social media for opposing other people's views - from both Left and Right, so I understand this.

However, I am baffled by the unswerving support for Trump because he is a very unpleasant man. And I'm especially puzzled by those women who support him because of his uncouth, coarse attitude towards women he doesn't like - not to mention those women who appear to him to be easy-meat.

I don't think they are stupid - it may well be that I'm being a bit of a snowflake and taking it all too seriously. Perhaps I should accept that all's fair in love and politics which, itself, is a bit of a dirty game.

Nevertheless, the willingness of the man to cross the line, be so disrespectful - and not only to women - does make me question the mindset of his supporters.

I think Trump has many of the characteristics of a cult leader. He has a great need for adulation, to be seen as a saviour, often tied to some evangelical christian groups. Dangerous when teamed with threats of violence (as in cries of "victory or death! by Steve Bannon and his MAGA army.

Not all people who will vote for him are cult followers of course, but there is a dangerous core.