Election Promises

That is how it reads to me.

growstuff have a look for yourself. Anything I write won’t be true will it?

Iam64

This government has been in place 3 months. Of course the plans for breakfast clubs in every school aren’t yet established.

The simple details-e.g. how long does breakfast club last? are important. You’ve already read on here that starting times can vary from starting at 8am to starting at 8.20.
Schools open for teaching at different times, so saying breakfast club provision will be for one hour or breakfast club provision will be for 30 minutes should not be beyond the ability of anyone on the planning committee. I suspect the length of cover will be determined by the costs they discover in the trial schools.

rsmuk is where I found the information that only one third of registered special needs students have an ECHP.

escaped

I'm assuming, though I'm no longer in touch, that at a normal independent school, the VAT exemption is only on the special needs provision, and not on the remainder of the school fees.

I'm not sure that's true. If a child has an EHCP stating that a private school is necessary, the government's guidelines state that they won't be affected.

ronib

rsmuk is where I found the information that only one third of registered special needs students have an ECHP.

RSM UK is a tax consultancy, so reporting second hand. Do you have the source of the figures?

Far too many Special Education schools were closed down, and the children transferred to mainstream schools, because according to Dame Mary Warnock: 'all teachers are teachers of special needs. 'She later admitted how wrong she was .

Many children have slight special needs, and flourish in smaller classes and groups, but those are disappearing in mainstream schools now, part ideology, part cost.

So if, Leo from say Walthamstow, receives £1k a term SEN funding from Tower Hamlets, yet his total school fees are say £8k a term, surely it is only fair that he should pay 20% VAT on the remaining £7k? By fair, I mean fair by other pupils at the school.

OK, I found what RSM UK has to say about it:

"There will be no catch-all exemption from charging VAT for private school fees for children with special educational needs and disabilities. Exemption is limited to ‘non-maintained special schools’ - independent charitable foundations whose pupils are funded through an Education Health and Care Plan (EHCP).

In addition, local authorities and other state bodies charged VAT on school fees they fund for pupils placed at other types of private school in accordance with an EHCP, or similar arrangements in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, will be entitled to recover the VAT from HMRC.

However, despite estimates that only a third of pupils with special educational needs have an EHCP or equivalent plan, there will be no relief from VAT on school fees for children who have such needs that do not qualify for that type of state funding. Parents in this situation will be faced with the choice of paying the VAT themselves or disrupting their child’s education by moving them into the state sector."

The issue is that some children don't have ECHPs. The reason is that there are huge delays in assessments. On the other hand, it's also known that some private schools label some of their pupils as having special needs because it makes it look as though they're doing a better job than might, in fact, be the case. Without an official assessment, it can't be confirmed whether a child really does have special needs - in any case, it's a debatable point what the definition of special needs is. Originally, it mean that a child's individual needs couldn't be met by mainstream education, but it's now being used for a much wider range of pupils - arguably, "every" child has a special need. In some cases, it's the parents who have decided that their children have a special need, so justify sending the child to a private school - those are the ones who won't be exempt.

eazybee

Far too many Special Education schools were closed down, and the children transferred to mainstream schools, because according to Dame Mary Warnock: 'all teachers are teachers of special needs. 'She later admitted how wrong she was .

Many children have slight special needs, and flourish in smaller classes and groups, but those are disappearing in mainstream schools now, part ideology, part cost.

All children would do better in smaller classes. Where should the line be drawn?

Gov.uk
EHC plans are held by 434353 children in England
Sen children registered but without Ehc
1238851

Roughly two thirds of Sen children don’t have EHC.
Okay Do you get it yet? growstuff

I agree, special needs are found at both ends of the scale, and in-between. "Special" needs in what area of learning?

escaped

So if, Leo from say Walthamstow, receives £1k a term SEN funding from Tower Hamlets, yet his total school fees are say £8k a term, surely it is only fair that he should pay 20% VAT on the remaining £7k? By fair, I mean fair by other pupils at the school.

It doesn't work like that. Children are given ECHPs which state that a specific private school is necessary. The parents aren't given grants towards the place - the place is funded in its entirety. Usually, the places are in special schools, although sometimes a school without special school designation is recommended if it has some kind of unique provision.

ronib

Gov.uk
EHC plans are held by 434353 children in England
Sen children registered but without Ehc
1238851

Roughly two thirds of Sen children don’t have EHC.
Okay Do you get it yet? growstuff

Oh yes! Don't be so patronising! I "get it" much more than you, so it seems.

ronib

Gov.uk
EHC plans are held by 434353 children in England
Sen children registered but without Ehc
1238851

Roughly two thirds of Sen children don’t have EHC.
Okay Do you get it yet? growstuff

Who has decided that these children have special needs? The parents?

Exactly why in smaller classes differentiation can be better, especially at primary level. So most needs can be accommodated.

growstuff you must be aware how special needs are assessed?
Well if you insist on suggesting that I am lying when I am not - patronising is about right.
Educational psychologists….

Not always growstuff, it depends on the school. Local authorities in some cases might fund, but in many cases LAs provide funding for additional support to be provided within main stream independent schools with parents still paying for the basic school fees.

Why are people saying ECHP?
It's EHCP. Just for clarity.

Sorry, slip of the fingers. I know very well that it stands for "Education, Health and Care Plan".

Not just you gs, it started way back on the thread.

escaped

Not always growstuff, it depends on the school. Local authorities in some cases might fund, but in many cases LAs provide funding for additional support to be provided within main stream independent schools with parents still paying for the basic school fees.

I know. The system is dysfunctional. That's why I wrote "some". I worked for a short time in a school which accepted a number of pupils with special needs decided by parents, so I saw it first hand. It was the school's unique selling point and it wouldn't have survived without the children it attracted. It was an - er - interesting experience. I wasn't entirely convinced that the school provided the children with a better experience than they could have received in a well-run mainstream school, but there were some parents who definitely thought that throwing money at a problem would solve it.

PS. I also know that some special schools do a brilliant job with their SEND pupils and I think there should be more of them (or special units attached to mainstream schools).

ronib

growstuff you must be aware how special needs are assessed?
Well if you insist on suggesting that I am lying when I am not - patronising is about right.
Educational psychologists….

I didn't suggest you're lying. Why do you make things up? (sigh)

escaped

Not always growstuff, it depends on the school. Local authorities in some cases might fund, but in many cases LAs provide funding for additional support to be provided within main stream independent schools with parents still paying for the basic school fees.

I've never known that to happen, but (of course) that just means I've never known of the cases where it does.

As I said earlier not all children with special needs will need an ECHP. That has never been true even when it was called "having a statement". You simply cannot compare the needs of a child who needs short-term extra support for learning to read (important though that is) with the needs of a child who has never been able to speak, or move independently or is dying of an incurable disease.
This is a complex field and it needs knowledge, understanding and the expertise of the people doing the job; not glib political point scoring.