Assisted dying

Madgran77

*It can't be part of end of life palliative care as it isn't legal at the moment*

I didnt say it was legal! I said that assisted dying (is being looked) at as part of palliative care ...by which I meant in the context of palliative care and patient choice and control over their own end of life if their quality of life is not worth living for in the patients view.

You said it is part of palliative care, as of now it isn't.

Iam64

Galaxy, yes I understand and accept your point. I don’t believe people with ld’s or black women get the same opportunities/levels if care

the worriedwell. I’m suggesting that loving families, partners with LPA which they will have discussed in detail should be able to advocate for their loved one when that person can no longer advocate for themselves. I do hope you aren’t suggesting we did anything other than that for my husband/my chikdren’s father.
I have absolute faith in my daughters. They wouldn’t be joint executors on my LPA otherwise. Yes there are some bad people. I worked with families for 40 years. The majority were good, loving people

I'm saying the law that is being proposed isn't about family being advocates for assisted deaths, if that is what you want you are already pushing to change what is being proposed even before it becomes law. That is what worries many, that if this is accepted the push will start to move the boundaries.

I think your post JaneJudge is very relevant to this thread. What you have said with regard to your daughter’s situation is extremely upsetting, and the lack of power which you have in advocating in her best interests.

It serves to emphasise how helpless many vulnerable people feel with regard to their voices being heard in life affecting decision making.

I’m advised to shut up or pay for deputyship for health, which I’m going to do
But this is normal now
I’m sorry it isn’t what the original threAd was about

Jane judge - I feel tearful reading your posts. Sadness but now I’m angry. Male care? No male sexual violence and exploitation

Rosie51

JaneJudge

The care providers want to safeguard my adult daughter with SLD by putting her on contraception just incase male staff accidentally rape her and she becomes pregnant
Could you even make this up?

JaneJudge my friend that lived opposite me 25 years ago had exactly the same experience with her daughter with severe learning difficulties. They were recommending contraceptive implants to overcome any possibility of a pregnancy. J wasn't interested in men or sex but her respite residential care could maybe cause "an accident" if someone didn't realise she wasn't consenting!
It's beyond disgusting and I'm horrified attitudes like this persist these days.

If it was a peer I could understand but she receives 1:1 care and they admitted it was to do with male care

Lots of very worthwhile and valid opinions on this post on a very emotive and complex issue, and much food for thought.
I have actually changed my mind in the last couple of years during this debate, from being positive about the “freedom to choose”, to seeing that the negatives outweigh the positives.

I am seriously concerned about “safeguards” and would urge a look at how Canada’s MAID legislation has progressed from 2016, through Amendments in 2021 to the present 2024 Amendment which has a temporary exclusion until March 2027 (to allow for staff training, guidelines and standards). This Bill will allow those with a sole medical condition of mental illness to apply for MAID.
The numbers each year of those dying with MAID has increased greatly year on year.

I would also suggest viewing Liz Carr’s documentary Better off Dead” on BBC iPlayer looking at AD from the perspective of many with disabilities.

It's also worth considering that our children don't always outlive us.

This thread is also making me think about the importance of each of us trying to work out what about what our own personal limits are for enjoying life - and communicating these to our families. So even if we don’t opt for some kind of assisted dying, our lives are not prolonged beyond the point when we would rather go more gently. I take the points made elsewhere that these parameters will change as we age, which just makes it even more important to reconsider these from time to time. And to communicate these to our families earlier on, so that they understand what we would want and are not faced with trying to make difficult positions on our behalf. There is a very readable book about this by Atul Gawande called Being Mortal - really not gloomy and helpful.

Chocolatelovinggran

Oh Lahlah my heart goes out to you: what an awful situation, and what a terrible dilemma for you and your daughter.
I do share a little of your OH's suspicions which has always made me feel opposed to the concept, but Baggs well made point, and your difficulties have made me start to re- think.
Sending you a virtual hug and flowers.

Oh, that’s very sweet - thank you. It’s probably not as gloomy as it sounds - she has been ill for most of her adult life (after a thankfully normal childhood) and it’s our normal now. Nobody wants to have to have conversations with their loved ones, and especially their children, about end of life. But sometimes these are the cards we are dealt and we just have to play them the best we can.

JaneJudge

The care providers want to safeguard my adult daughter with SLD by putting her on contraception just incase male staff accidentally rape her and she becomes pregnant
Could you even make this up?

JaneJudge my friend that lived opposite me 25 years ago had exactly the same experience with her daughter with severe learning difficulties. They were recommending contraceptive implants to overcome any possibility of a pregnancy. J wasn't interested in men or sex but her respite residential care could maybe cause "an accident" if someone didn't realise she wasn't consenting!
It's beyond disgusting and I'm horrified attitudes like this persist these days.

Totally in agreement at least there will be a recognized process of choice not a back door Liverpool pathway that leaves you dehydrated and in misery to the end. Palliative care does not work for some illnesses and can leave the dying in excruciating pain. I did not ask to be born in the first place ? All medical intervention is prolonging or killing - many drugs cause untold misery. I guess many of you take them but this is ok as it's your choice ? I choose not to take pharmaceuticals unless deemed not harmful.

It can't be part of end of life palliative care as it isn't legal at the moment

I didnt say it was legal! I said that assisted dying (is being looked) at as part of palliative care ...by which I meant in the context of palliative care and patient choice and control over their own end of life if their quality of life is not worth living for in the patients view.

Galaxy, yes I understand and accept your point. I don’t believe people with ld’s or black women get the same opportunities/levels if care

the worriedwell. I’m suggesting that loving families, partners with LPA which they will have discussed in detail should be able to advocate for their loved one when that person can no longer advocate for themselves. I do hope you aren’t suggesting we did anything other than that for my husband/my chikdren’s father.
I have absolute faith in my daughters. They wouldn’t be joint executors on my LPA otherwise. Yes there are some bad people. I worked with families for 40 years. The majority were good, loving people

Neither can I
It changed neither to neuter, which is apt really.

JaneJudge that is truly awful. I can't get my head round that.

I don’t trust ‘people’ to make the right decisions

I do believe in kinder deaths though

Oh my God. I am really sorry Jane.

The care providers want to safeguard my adult daughter with SLD by putting her on contraception just incase male staff accidentally rape her and she becomes pregnant
Could you even make this up?

I am so so sorry for what you have experienced Iam64 but. And it's a big but. Do you think people with learning disabilities receive the same level of healthcare that others do, do you think that the studies on the different outcomes for black women compared to white women in maternity care are worrying, do you think the medical profession showed any morality/sanity in the treatment of gender non conforming/ autistic children. Where were the safeguards on those issues. Why would this be any different.

Iam64

theworriedwell

Madgran77

theworriedwell

Thinking about this I'm not sure I'd want to be treated by a doctor or nurse who is comfortable with killing people. For doctors and nurses who wouldn't be comfortable with it I wouldn't expect them to do it.

It's not about being "comfortable" with killing people per se! Its part of working with patients in their palliative end of life care.

So are they comfortable with it or does it cause distress to them? Either way I don't think it is appropriate.

It can't be part of end of life palliative care as it isn't legal at the moment.

Your posts suggest you are highly suspicious and anxious about the possibility of people having the choice about their end of life care. We are all different and of course I respect your views, which are different than mine.
You mentioned a difficult end of life experienced by one of your dogs. I’m sorry she suffered and you shared that suffering, one of mine had a difficult minute or two. My other dogs have gone to sleep in my arms, peacefully. Our big labradoodle lay between me and my husband. We sang and talked with her.

My husband died 2 years ago. His death was eased,thank God by morphine. I was by his side the last 8 days of his life. Our daughters and I spent four days with him as his life came to its end. He had stage 4 mets and had a series of increasingly catastrophic strokes. By day 5 one of our daughters said mum, yiu wouldn’t let a dog suffer like this. We should be able to help dad.
I recognise the concerns from many others. We had LPA medical, we were able to speak for him when that capacity was taken from him. Most families are loving. I’m sure safeguards can be put in place for those who would exploit things. Why should loving caring families be left unable to say, x was clear, if the reached this point, unable to swallow, speak, be involved in any way in decision making - they’d want it to end.

I think the biggest worry is that when this has been introduced in other countries it has changed over time, the slippery slope if you like. How can we be sure that once this starts it won't morph into something different?

You are already advocating for something that isn't being suggested from what I've read. From my reading people who aren't able to be involved in the decision making wouldn't be eligible for assisted suicide.

Iam64
I agree with you, what you describe is how I feel if idealistically we had some sort of autonomy over these decisions.

I think this is different from minority groups though.

theworriedwell

Madgran77

theworriedwell

Thinking about this I'm not sure I'd want to be treated by a doctor or nurse who is comfortable with killing people. For doctors and nurses who wouldn't be comfortable with it I wouldn't expect them to do it.

It's not about being "comfortable" with killing people per se! Its part of working with patients in their palliative end of life care.

So are they comfortable with it or does it cause distress to them? Either way I don't think it is appropriate.

It can't be part of end of life palliative care as it isn't legal at the moment.

Your posts suggest you are highly suspicious and anxious about the possibility of people having the choice about their end of life care. We are all different and of course I respect your views, which are different than mine.
You mentioned a difficult end of life experienced by one of your dogs. I’m sorry she suffered and you shared that suffering, one of mine had a difficult minute or two. My other dogs have gone to sleep in my arms, peacefully. Our big labradoodle lay between me and my husband. We sang and talked with her.

My husband died 2 years ago. His death was eased,thank God by morphine. I was by his side the last 8 days of his life. Our daughters and I spent four days with him as his life came to its end. He had stage 4 mets and had a series of increasingly catastrophic strokes. By day 5 one of our daughters said mum, yiu wouldn’t let a dog suffer like this. We should be able to help dad.
I recognise the concerns from many others. We had LPA medical, we were able to speak for him when that capacity was taken from him. Most families are loving. I’m sure safeguards can be put in place for those who would exploit things. Why should loving caring families be left unable to say, x was clear, if the reached this point, unable to swallow, speak, be involved in any way in decision making - they’d want it to end.

Madgran77

theworriedwell

Thinking about this I'm not sure I'd want to be treated by a doctor or nurse who is comfortable with killing people. For doctors and nurses who wouldn't be comfortable with it I wouldn't expect them to do it.

It's not about being "comfortable" with killing people per se! Its part of working with patients in their palliative end of life care.

So are they comfortable with it or does it cause distress to them? Either way I don't think it is appropriate.

It can't be part of end of life palliative care as it isn't legal at the moment.

Agree. The are many govt policies such water quality and certain crimes the govt does not enforce. There will be too much pillar to post and not my jobism. Again AD remains against the fundamentals of most people’s values. Just because Esther Rantzen supports something doesn’t make it right.