Assisted dying

Strong supporter of assisted dying here. So many people at end of life beg for it, & the doctors have to explain they can't. It goes hand -in-hand with good palliative care, we should have both. Good palliative care does not mean there's no place for assisted dying, neither does assisted dying mean that individuals can't choose to go naturally with respect & good symptom relief.

So, again it raises the question of people suffering with mental health issues.

Does immense suffering mean that they too, will be given the option?

I've asked this question before, and met with, well, not very many responses, but it does need to be included in the discussion.

Also, the thought that anyone who watched someone suffer wanting their loved one to be euthanized; I never wanted my daughter to be, because she did a complete about turn on her original views, and battled hard to live.

If assisted dying is allowed then excellent safeguards need to be in place for medical staff too. B9 is right - I suspect many dying patients in intractable pain would prefer doses of pain killers that relieve their pain even if there is risk of hastening death- but fear under treatment.

It isn't just about end of life care. Someone could be in pain and suffering physically and mentally for a year or more before they die.

For me it's about the quality of life as well as the quality of death.

I think it is telling that over 80% of doctors and over 80% of those working in palliative care are against assisted dying. Doctors went into the profession to try their best to heal people, with the motto engrained into their training of 'first do no harm'. Basically they don't want to be part of killing people! As a nurse many years ago we used to ease people out of this life if their pain became too much, it was never made common knowledge, and I believe that now patients and relatives are asked if they would like to be rendered unconscious in cases like this.

For me the problem of the slippery slope is insurmountable, and this is why the disabled are so against it. As with abortion, which started off with very strict criteria which were then gradually relaxed. I am all for abortion as long as it is not just used as birth control, but it seems that is effectively how it is being used now for many people.

You start off with limiting it to people judged to have less than six months to live, then you expand it to those with life limiting diseases, then to those with incurable diseases, then to adults with mental health problems, then children with mental health problems, until there are very few limits at all. If assisted dying goes through, no safeguards will prevent the expansion scope, as can be seen in countries who have started down this route.

To me it is the worry of coercion by relatives who don't want to see the house go in care fees, but more than that, just the feeling of guilt from those who feel they are becoming an expensive burden, and that it is their duty to request death to relieve others of that worry. If there was an option to save the bulk of my savings for the family, rather than spend it on care, I know that I would feel duty bound to take it.

I find myself shying away from thinking about this.

It frightens me tbh, I used to think that it may be a good thing, but I do worry that some people will feel that is their only option as they don't want to be a "burden" on others and think they "may"have pain that they can't cope with . But pain control is available to people with a diagnosed illness and options are available. I do wonder if pain when people are very ill and being giving prescribed pain control but say it isn't working, is more emotional rather than physical? Do we need to understand the difference
Will this bill w make it easier to end your life and feel in control, perhaps for some but not for everyone.

OldFrill

People with religious objections should abstain. The bill is about choice. I don't want my choice denied by others' religious dogma.

Absolutely!

Farzanah your last paragraph hit the nail firmly on the head.
👏👏👏

The lack of funding (or will to fund) these services has a huge bearing on whether a debate on Assisted Dying will really be an ethical or economic choice.

Yes 👏👏

Luckygirl3

Before laws on assisted dying are passed, parliament needs t address the proper funding of end of life care. The two are inextricably linked, and as long as that care continues to be poor, then an objective vote cannot be taken.

You have hit the nail on the head Luckygirl.
Hospices, of which there are far too few, are experiencing a serious lack of funding. Palliative care services in and out of hospital are poorly funded. Social care is in a very poor state, and the government has cancelled the cap on care costs.

The lack of funding (or will to fund) these services has a huge bearing on whether a debate on Assisted Dying will really be an ethical or economic choice.

keepingquiet

Madgran77

keepingquiet

I'm sorry but 'booking' your own death sounds like the stuff of nightmares to me.

Probably not such a nightmare if one is close to the
end of life with a non curable condition in great pain etc etc.

Why do people assume everybody dies in great pain? As a former nurse for twenty years and lots of deaths I rarely came across this. A similar situation with my family members- good end of life care ensures this does not happen in people who are terminally ill.

Well, it happened to a friend of ours in Australia. He was in a very good hospital, had been for some weeks, and the cancer (prostate) had got into his spine. He told dh that he’d thought he was able to handle pain, but this was something else.

Not long before the end he said, ‘I don’t think I want to endure much more of this.’
Presumably sufficient morphine to make him entirely comfortable would have been fatal - but he was dying anyway.
IMO it’s beyond cruel.

Keepingquiet, but we don’t know what’s ahead for us, and for many it would be a great comfort to have some assurance that we wouldn’t die in terrible pain.
But that’s only half the story, loss of dignity, loss of mobility, loss of mind, endless other reasons why one might like to choose assisted dying.

Madgran77

keepingquiet

I'm sorry but 'booking' your own death sounds like the stuff of nightmares to me.

Probably not such a nightmare if one is close to the
end of life with a non curable condition in great pain etc etc.

Why do people assume everybody dies in great pain? As a former nurse for twenty years and lots of deaths I rarely came across this. A similar situation with my family members- good end of life care ensures this does not happen in people who are terminally ill.

I think I would enjoy my remaining life so much more if I knew I could end it if I really felt i wanted to.
Same for my family, couldn’t bear to watch them suffer.

When deciding whether you wish to end your life you will consider what your life is currently like. It is a decision that does not happen in a vacuum. If you are receiving excellent end of life care and are able to find some pleasure in sharing your last days/months with your loved ones then you will probably decide against ending your life. If you are receiving the sort of rubbish care that is sadly the fate of many in the UK, then you are likely to decide enough is enough.

End of life care needs to be properly funded and consistent across the UK. Round here it entirely depends on whether you are lucky enough to have relatives to advocate for you to get a scarce place in the excellent voluntary funded hospice.

Yes in terms if the debate I agree. The problem with the cabinet is that they hide behind a smoke screen of process and red tape. The blood scandal, Thalidomide, Covid and the Horizon scandal are examples. When Sunak was asked about Horizon he (&govt) accepted along with the rest of the cabinet it was an injustice and then said I will get a minister to do expedite it…..what….he is in charge. JFDI is a phrase in industry. Computer says NO comes to mind.

Before laws on assisted dying are passed, parliament needs t address the proper funding of end of life care. The two are inextricably linked, and as long as that care continues to be poor, then an objective vote cannot be taken.

keepingquiet

I'm sorry but 'booking' your own death sounds like the stuff of nightmares to me.

Probably not such a nightmare if one is close to the
end of life with a non curable condition in great pain etc etc.

Palliative care/Hospices are recommended in Islam, and the best hospice for the Muslim is to die at home naturally with family members around (HOME HOSPICE).
This is the best dignified death/best death
.
No one would argue with this, but the truth of the matter is that there are too few hospice places for those who need them, and care in the home depends on appropriately trained palliative care nurses being available - and they are stretched to the absolute limit as are district nurses. I’m not going to argue the rights and wrongs of assisted dying. Often, by the time a hospice place becomes available the patient is too ill to be moved, or has died, often in extreme pain. The government should be giving more support to the hospice movement, and to providing more palliative care beds in hospitals. But the NHS, as we all know, is broken, so what hope?

My beloved husband died at aged 47 from a terminal diagnosis. Neither he, myself or our children would ever have considered assisted dying then as we needed that extra time to show much we loved him.
Now I am 87 and have enjoyed my life but very tired and worn down with various ailments. I’m still enjoying living on my own in the family house with a lot of support from family who live close by and I’m enjoying reading and listening to my favourite music but I would like to go to sleep and not wake up. I’m sure this would upset my family a lot if they knew this but hopefully they never will, I have 3 friends of similar age who feel the same way

We shouldn't forget children and adults with Down syndrome were historically denied heart surgery by some surgeons. That was an "ethical" decision according to those doctors. Safeguards to prevent vulnerable people being pressured into decisions would need to be more vigorous than anything we've had up until now.

Are you aware of what happened to people with learning disabilities during the pandemic? Anyone who has any experience of peopke with learning disabilities in healthcare knows the word safeguards is not true.

cornergran

An interesting link kalms thank you.

For me it helpfully highlights the struggle those with strong religious beliefs may have. However, no matter the strength of their beliefs it is wrong in my view for them to take precedence over differing beliefs and wishes.

With robust safeguarding protection in place my personal view is that the choice should be there. Assisted dying would be the right choice for some people, as it would be the wrong choice for others. Not everyone has a loving, caring family willing and able to support them to their end, not all will be sustained by religious beliefs. Even with the best medical care not all pain and physical challenges (eg being unable to swallow) are manageable. Our ability to tolerate pain and lack of dignity varies from person to person.

Personally I believe there are circumstances in which I would choose assisted dying safe in the knowledge my family would support my wishes while not manipulating the situation.

For me this debate is about choice. While it would be wrong to expect any medic to go against deeply held beliefs it would be equally wrong for those beliefs to block access for those who do not share them. How this can happen must surely be part of the debate.

Absolutely this...

My Mum died in 1990, my Father 2020 and even now, the memories of what they experienced can bring me to my knees.

If they had been given the choice, the pain, lack of dignity and absolute terror they experienced would have been taken away.

I want that choice.

Is it right that a terminally ill man or woman who cannot afford £12,000 to go to Dignitas in Switzerland , must suffer sometimes intractable pain until they finally die.

Intractable pain is pain that no drugs can reach without a dosage that would kill the patient.