The UK population is in decline

I think my main point remains. The UK would have a declining population without significant immigration to boost numbers, especially at the younger age range. Without immigration there would be fewer workers to do all kinds of necessary jobs (including in the NHS and care sectors) and pay taxes to support public services. This has consequences: the UK culture will change over time and cultural differences will impact on politics. Governments have been slow to respond - partly because they fear the voters - and have failed to develop housing and other facilities to meet population increase from immigration. The Tories weaponized immigration in an attempt to hang on to power while doing nothing.

M0nica I can recall a time when people might have referred to your aunts as "maiden ladies" or old maids. You never hear these expressions now and they come across as so old fashioned. Relics of a time when woman felt thay had to "wait to be asked" by a man.

The aunt who never married because she was too uncompromising sounds like me. I just found that I had no wish to live on intimate terms with any one person for the whole of my life. My grandmother said I was so choosy that if I wanted a man I would have to knit myself one!

I was never a great fan of knitting.

The fact that some GN members haven't seen and do not know any female engineers (graduate or apprentice trained) doesn't mean that there are now a lot of them about

We have two in our family (graduates) now but I remember few young women on engineering degree or HND courses in the mid-1960s, just one of two at our College of Technology then, (I was in a different department).
There may have been others in other areas of the country of course.

Almost all my closest friends and family from childhood onwards have been single and childless.

I had 2 aunts, both born before 1920, who were single, childless and had successful well paid careers, one in the civil service, the other held a senior nursing position. Neither of my sisters has had children, my closest friends from school, university and several from work have remained single and childless.

It has never occurred to me to ask them why they are childless. I wasn't really interested. I do know some would have liked to marry and have children, because they said so. DD decided when she was 4 that she didnt want children when she grew up and decided at 20, she would prefer to live alone and not have a partner. She said (quite correctly) that she was too uncompromising to sustain a relationship.

I cannot remember all this poking and prying and deploring unmarried women. I was brought up just to accept people for what they are,

As @Terribul states many of the reasons women are opting to be childfree or to have less children are economic. Mainly the astronomical cost of childcare and housing in this country. However birthrates are in decline across Europe, including the Scandi countries where childcare is much cheaper and there is not the same housing crisis.

There are other reasons which have less to do with economics than with personal and ethical choices.

Climate activists do not want to bring more consumers and generators of waste into a world that is already over burdened and contaminated. They fear for the future of their children in such a world.

Some women just do not want children for health related or personal reasons. They look at "family life" and think it looks like a lot of hard work for no special reward. Having children does not serve their needs.

The stigma against women who choose to remain childfree is rapidly disappearing and old fashioned. I can remember a friend of mine telling me (1960s) I would be a "lonely old maid" if I didnt marry and have children. The attitide towards childfree women then (from those who had children) was one of pity because they had no managed to attract a partner. Now it is more likely to be a deep envy for loss of a lifestyle that was sacrificed on the altar of breeding the next generation.

Maybe what Peter Costello, our then treasurer, said ‘ one for mum, one for dad and one for your country’. That was in 2002, and a ‘baby bonus’ accompanied it. Have to say I thought it was a bit odd at the time. Still, it probably worked short term.

The first women engineers graduated in the early 1960s. I can remember several at university with me then.

In the 1980s and 1990s. I worked with quite a number of women with engineering degrees. Career paths were certainly more difficult, but there were plenty of female graduate engineers.

DD started with a degree in acting and then did a OU degree in science and engineering in her 40s.

We have just returned from a coach tour to Germany and almost every coach had a at least one female driver, away from home for over a week, just like the male drivers.

The fact that some GN members haven't seen and do not know any female engineers (graduate or apprentice trained) doesn't mean that there are now a lot of them about.

Grantanow

Casdon

I presume the vast majority of immigrants came to the UK either as students or to work though Grantanow, so isn’t a relatively small number in Scotland due more to there not being so many students there and less jobs offered to them?

Exactly. The SNP has failed to develop employment opportunities.

I don’t know enough about Scotland to comment on that, I don’t know if they are already self sufficient in the areas of work that migrants do elsewhere in the UK or not.

Casdon

I presume the vast majority of immigrants came to the UK either as students or to work though Grantanow, so isn’t a relatively small number in Scotland due more to there not being so many students there and less jobs offered to them?

Exactly. The SNP has failed to develop employment opportunities.

Freya5

growstuff

I don't suppose you happen to know how many females are signed up for the apprenticeships Freya?

No I don't, not in the know re intakes. Personally I know one young lady who is an Engineer and one who has nearly completed
her Engineering degree. Looking at the local area at least 7, already qualified, and holding high profile jobs, one of whom is chair of Renewables in our area. At a local skills fair, for 14 to 15 year old females , interested in STEM a huge employer in the area , lauched a program specifically for women to help more of them into engineering, especially in the renewables. They also stated "we employ above the national average of female engineers who are spearheading decarbonisation research". So certainly here females are being encouraged to choose engineering.

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But they probably wouldn't have come through the apprenticeship route. Thanks for answering anyway.

Freya5

Freya5

growstuff

I don't suppose you happen to know how many females are signed up for the apprenticeships Freya?

No I don't, not in the know re intakes. Personally I know one young lady who is an Engineer and one who has nearly completed
her Engineering degree. Looking at the local area at least 7, already qualified, and holding high profile jobs, one of whom is chair of Renewables in our area. At a local skills fair, for 14 to 15 year old females , interested in STEM a huge employer in the area , lauched a program specifically for women to help more of them into engineering, especially in the renewables. They also stated "we employ above the national average of female engineers who are spearheading decarbonisation research". So certainly here females are being encouraged to choose engineering.

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Sorry as usual didn't read your quote properly, but at least you're aware of girls being encouraged into apprenticeships .

One more addendum looking at the website, it states"there are female students in apprenticeships at the Instute, including in the trades."
Oh dear, have gone on,but at least it makes people aware that in our little corner we are have been quite ahead of the times.

Freya5

growstuff

I don't suppose you happen to know how many females are signed up for the apprenticeships Freya?

No I don't, not in the know re intakes. Personally I know one young lady who is an Engineer and one who has nearly completed
her Engineering degree. Looking at the local area at least 7, already qualified, and holding high profile jobs, one of whom is chair of Renewables in our area. At a local skills fair, for 14 to 15 year old females , interested in STEM a huge employer in the area , lauched a program specifically for women to help more of them into engineering, especially in the renewables. They also stated "we employ above the national average of female engineers who are spearheading decarbonisation research". So certainly here females are being encouraged to choose engineering.

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Sorry as usual didn't read your quote properly, but at least you're aware of girls being encouraged into apprenticeships .

growstuff

I don't suppose you happen to know how many females are signed up for the apprenticeships Freya?

No I don't, not in the know re intakes. Personally I know one young lady who is an Engineer and one who has nearly completed
her Engineering degree. Looking at the local area at least 7, already qualified, and holding high profile jobs, one of whom is chair of Renewables in our area. At a local skills fair, for 14 to 15 year old females , interested in STEM a huge employer in the area , lauched a program specifically for women to help more of them into engineering, especially in the renewables. They also stated "we employ above the national average of female engineers who are spearheading decarbonisation research". So certainly here females are being encouraged to choose engineering.

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I presume the vast majority of immigrants came to the UK either as students or to work though Grantanow, so isn’t a relatively small number in Scotland due more to there not being so many students there and less jobs offered to them?

A modest improvement in UK fecundity is a drop in the ocean compared with high rates of reproduction in third world countries where education and contraception are in short supply and which is leading to world overpopulation. It's noticeable that with some 750,000 immigrants to the UK in 2022 only about 20,000 settled in Scotland which suggests over a decade of SNP rule has not made Scotland an attractive place. My main point as the OP was that the UK would be an ageing country without immigration and that would mean fewer workers to support retirees though taxation and through working in the NHS and care sectors.

The problem starts with government interference. People have the right to chose whether to have families. But families have to be structural (Man, Woman and children- May not be perfect but that should be the aspiration). Where governments have interfered such as China and India it hasn't worked. These have been driven by secular philosophies the so called panacea of success. There is a difference between exponential growth and simple arithmetic progression. If a society grows exponentially and there are "no limits" to growth, that society will naturally have fewer children as opposed to no children. Some may decide not have any children and that is neither right or wrong. Global economic well being is the start. When the western governments stop interfering in sub saharan africa and the middle east there will be reduced desire to have lots of children or emigrate. Countries also need single market collaboration where the market can stabilise out on goods and services. From a UK perspective the trade is not frictionless, except between NI/Republic. So the newer trade is from Turkey and India both countries are now allowing freedom of movement due trades in computer and technology. And yes those immigrants will initially have large families but as they see success the birth rate will naturally decline after 3 or 4 generations (cf Muslim at 3.0 in the UK and 3.8 in Pakistan and 2.18 in saudi arabia due to economic growth.

We have a chartered engineer (MSc) in the family. Perhaps she's unusual?

IOMGran

Wen need to stop measuring success in terms of growth. We need to measure it in terms of quality of life and happiness.

I fully agree, IOMGran, though I might say in terms of "contentment" over "happiness."
If all services, including the NHS, are cut to the bone; if our housing situation is a shambles and if crime everywhere is rife, with so many desperate people trying and failing to access the same things, then is it such a good idea to rapidly grow the population? I'm suggesting there might be other priorities first.

Allira

^though I've heard tell there might be one or two female painters)^
There must be more than one or two in the country or perhaps we've employed both of them!

Oi! That's a bit selfish!

My partner has been having various bits of work done on his house and we've seriously not come across any female tradespeople.

My neighbour is Hungarian and is the manager of a small engineering company. We were having a conversation about the gender of the women he employs (without exception male). Apparently, he hasn't come across this in other countries where he's worked (Hungary, Germany, Canada). His wife (also Hungarian) works in another small engineering factory and is the only female in her role. Both did engineering apprenticeships in Hungary.

though I've heard tell there might be one or two female painters)
There must be more than one or two in the country or perhaps we've employed both of them!

PS. I've noticed an increase in female bus drivers, but many of them seem to be Eastern European. I'm not objecting at all to having Eastern European bus drivers, but I wonder if their upbringing has had less sexist attitudes to employment.

CariadAgain

growstuff

I don't suppose you happen to know how many females are signed up for the apprenticeships Freya?

Now that would be interesting to know. I'm in area of the country where the only tradespeople all appear to be men (though I've heard tell there might be one or two female painters). I would love to employ female ones if I could find them - as a lot of the male ones here have very sexist attitudes (which extend to the fact that pedestrian me has had several near miss road accidents - all "white van men" - since moving here and never ever had that once in the much longer time I lived in my previous city). So - yep the sexism of some of the male tradespeople here extends to careless driving/blow the nearby pedestrian and when I yell at them for nearly hitting me they never ever even apologise and obviously couldn't care less!

Bring on the women I say - and I can see a few of the postpeople are now female and a couple of the busdrivers - and I want to see more/much more of that - as they've always been amongst the most efficient I've come across here.

For once I agree with you CariadAgain. I'm actually in favour of more high quality apprenticeships. However, it's concerned me for some time that most of them are in traditional 'male' jobs, especially the Level 3 (and beyond) apprenticeships.

How can more girls be persuaded to go into trade apprenticeships? I actually do know one, but she's such a rarity (the only one on her scheme) that she's always hand-picked to appear on the front of publicity leaflets and invited to talk to the press and schools, etc. about her experience.

M0nica

Grantanow

The UK replacement rate (births minus deaths) is declining and that is helpfully offset by increased immigration. Should the government take measures to increase the birthrate - a bounty for extra kids, family allowance for all kids, a cheap rail and bus ticket for large families (as in France) and meantime increase immigration for those of working age from the EU and elsewhere?

There was a discussion on the radio last week. Many countries in the world face this problem. In South Korea the birthrate has fallen below one child per woman and Italy isn't far below.

Unfortunately incentives do not work. Many countries have offered all kinds of incentives for families to consider having more children, but they have no effect.

The only time country to have success overcoming the problem and increased the population was Roumania under their communist leader, Nicolai Ceausesco. He banned all contraception and abortion for any reason and made using contraception or abortion a criminal offence with severe punishment. Not a system you could introduce in a democratic country.

What happened in Rumania just goes to show many women don't want children/more children (as the case may be). I bet that's one consequence of the Internet that no-one much thought of - ie we can/do read account after account of what pregnancy/childbirth/bringing up children has been like for so many women and that must be the most effective form of contraception out there I sometimes think.

My own generation (ie Baby Boomer) knew a tiny bit about what pregnancy and childbirth was like - but all I personally remember was my school showing us all a video of a woman literally giving birth. That was probably the best contraception ever LOL - as several boys and one girl (guess who?) promptly thought it was so horrific we fainted.

I was so very grateful for that solitary little thing I knew of what it was like - as I'd have had no idea from my ultra-reserved mother and the way she could still wear a bikini and look very good in it (still with her size 8 figure and unmarked skin).

So - younger women are so lucky these days that they hear much more of what pregnancy and childbirth are like/they themselves might be at risk of and the Internet is one genie they can't "put back in the box" and erase that knowing from their minds - and the consequent decision of many of them to restrict the number of children they have or not have any at all.

So - yep our own indigenous population is going to continue to go down and it is a problem as to how we maintain our own way of life/secular society etc.

growstuff

I don't suppose you happen to know how many females are signed up for the apprenticeships Freya?

Now that would be interesting to know. I'm in area of the country where the only tradespeople all appear to be men (though I've heard tell there might be one or two female painters). I would love to employ female ones if I could find them - as a lot of the male ones here have very sexist attitudes (which extend to the fact that pedestrian me has had several near miss road accidents - all "white van men" - since moving here and never ever had that once in the much longer time I lived in my previous city). So - yep the sexism of some of the male tradespeople here extends to careless driving/blow the nearby pedestrian and when I yell at them for nearly hitting me they never ever even apologise and obviously couldn't care less!

Bring on the women I say - and I can see a few of the postpeople are now female and a couple of the busdrivers - and I want to see more/much more of that - as they've always been amongst the most efficient I've come across here.

IOMGran

Wen need to stop measuring success in terms of growth. We need to measure it in terms of quality of life and happiness.

Hear,hear, IOMGran 🙂