Will Messrs Reeves and Raynor Still Be Around This Time Next Year?

Mollygo

^but however much people insist on taking it as a personal criticism and getting defensive will not change the fact that it is not.^
I don’t take it as personal criticism, I take it as a continuous criticism of anyone including me, who doesn’t fit with how you see as what people should do
and you getting defensive will not change that perception.

Exactly.

And the only way this could be changed into Doodledog’s idea of how it should be, is either a citizen’s tax to be paid by people who choose not to work (and can afford not to work for whatever reason) or by forced paid employment for a certain number of days which is something no government will be prepared to do. Governments will endeavour to get none working people into employment if those people are living entirely on benefits and are fit enough to work. Governments will not introduce a citizen’s tax, nor will they try to force people who can afford to support themselves into work. To do so would be either pure communism or pure fascism.

I stayed at home when my children were young. It was nothing to do with being in the lucky position of being able to afford to stay at home, there was no nursery care available, none. My parents and parents in law lived 240 miles away and we had no family living nearby at all. Play school, as it was called then, lasted three hours in the morning and children went two or three mornings a week during term time only. We had so little money. Every month was a struggle, waiting for the next pay cheque. My husband took a second job, in the evening. I still couldn’t afford to buy my babies their winter coats, they had them as birthday, or Christmas presents from our parents.
Apparently this was a privileged position because we were able to afford for me to stay at home. What planet are some people on?

I think we were one of those families that Starmer says don’t have any savings and couldn’t afford to write a cheque!

Allira

Once again another thread has become derailed because of the insistence that working parents somehow have to pay for a SAHP to stay at home and bring up their own children.

There hasn't so far been an explanation of how this works.

When my older DC were very young I managed to do a rather mundane but strenuous evening job four evenings a week, but it must have been below the threshold to pay tax or NI. Oh dear!!
The panic each evening wondering if DH would get home from work in time to take over childcare wasn't worth it.

I’ve always thought SATP are undervalued by society when it’s the most important job anyone can ever do, certainly up to the age of 5 or 6.
Those parents who choose to work full time from the time their maternity/ paternity leave ends are doing just that, choosing their job over taking care of their own child.
For those with absolutely no choice in the matter, and have to work, that’s another story.

Mollygo

^but however much people insist on taking it as a personal criticism and getting defensive will not change the fact that it is not.^
I don’t take it as personal criticism, I take it as a continuous criticism of anyone including me, who doesn’t fit with how you see as what people should do
and you getting defensive will not change that perception.

Agree totally👏🏻👏🏻

Once again another thread has become derailed because of the insistence that working parents somehow have to pay for a SAHP to stay at home and bring up their own children.

There hasn't so far been an explanation of how this works.

When my older DC were very young I managed to do a rather mundane but strenuous evening job four evenings a week, but it must have been below the threshold to pay tax or NI. Oh dear!!
The panic each evening wondering if DH would get home from work in time to take over childcare wasn't worth it.

I have a DD who is a SAHM. She does, however, save the government around £14,000 per year by sending her children ×2 to private school.
I don't think she spends all day cleaning the house or polishing her nails. She does walk a neighbour's dog daily for them, and she collects another child from school whose mum works.

Mollygo

Absolutely growstuff.
It works both ways but are you saying that makes it right?

Not at all.

Absolutely growstuff.
It works both ways but are you saying that makes it right?

Mollygo

^but however much people insist on taking it as a personal criticism and getting defensive will not change the fact that it is not.^
I don’t take it as personal criticism, I take it as a continuous criticism of anyone including me, who doesn’t fit with how you see as what people should do
and you getting defensive will not change that perception.

It works both ways Mollygo. Look back at the number of threads there have been on GN where posters smugly assume that staying at home while their children were small produces the best outcomes. Look at the nasty comments about selfish working parents and handing offspring over to baby farms - all intended to gaslight those who made a choice that the posters didn't agree with.

but however much people insist on taking it as a personal criticism and getting defensive will not change the fact that it is not.
I don’t take it as personal criticism, I take it as a continuous criticism of anyone including me, who doesn’t fit with how you see as what people should do
and you getting defensive will not change that perception.

I have never said that anyone is not valuable.

I have never said what I think others should or shouldn't do, either.

I would love to see the return of non-means-tested child benefit, which has nothing to do with my views on people paying or not paying tax. I would also love to see the eradication of child poverty, and much more investment in education.

For the millionth time, my views are simply that we all benefit from living in a country where there are things like eduction, health, welfare and so on free at the point of use, and IMO that is a good thing. People who work provide the things they make or the services they provide, and also pay taxes on their income. Those who don't do not, but still benefit from living in a country which provides for them. Spending money someone else has earned is not paying tax.

Whenever this comes up people assume it is a dig at SAHPs, which it is not. It applies to anyone who is able to work but chooses not to, and is about contributing financially, not a personal criticism.

I have repeatedly said that we all do what is right for us, and our individual circumstances. I don't know how else I can say it, but however much people insist on taking it as a personal criticism and getting defensive will not change the fact that it is not.

Oh, and not that it's relevant, but I also did voluntary work, and still do .

And just to add how many full time working parents could put two full days of volunteering into the primary school every week plus a different full day once a month for an old folk's lunch club? But hey ho those working parents were so much more valuable than any non-worker aka as someone who didn't pay income tax or national insurance. Isn't it rather telling that only paid employment is of any value? The whole voluntary section should go on strike, I think we'd then see how much useless unpaid volunteers contribute to society.
I was so hard up at times we relied on the Co-op book of stamps to get food for that day..... #parasites are us

I was a SAHM for a number of years, the identifying circumstances of which I'm not prepared to divulge. In my defence I put in virtually two full school days as a volunteer in their primary school listening to children read, teaching others how to knit, or doing pottery (my speciality) with them. On one day a month I volunteered at an old peoples lunch club which involved a full day of preparation, cooking, serving and clearing up. I wasn't paid for any of this and therefore paid no income tax or national insurance. What an absolute scrounger and ne'er do well I was!! I really don't deserve the pension I now receive courtesy of paying some years of voluntary contributions and still I'm a little short because of some incomplete years. I'd suggest nobody does any voluntary work, insist on being paid the going rate, otherwie you'll be regarded s a parasite on the rest of humanity!!

Allira

^What kind of privilege Doodledog?^
The kind of privileges I and others experienced when our DC were small 45+ years ago , ie home-made or hand-me-down clothes, going without, no holidays abroad etc. That kind of "privilege" because there were no nurseries.

Exactly.

And the ‘benefit’ I received was Child Benefit, paid to the mothers of all children, whether their mother worked or not. Dennis Healey thought giving mothers a ‘benefit’ for all their children, whether the mother worked or not, was going to benefit the children. He was a Labour politician and he was right.

School hours: usually 9 am to 3.30 pm.
There may be breakfast and after school clubs, a newish innovation which may help.

Working hours - possibly 9 am to 5.30 pm in an office?
Could be shift work eg for nurses could be 12, 10 or 8 hour shifts. Police officers - rotating shifts which is impossible if the other parent works away.
Some work requires a person to work extra hours if the situation demands it. Mine did.

Doodledog
I don’t understand why people feel the need to try to persuade others that what they did is the right thing to do

That is the strangest comment I’ve read when I frequently read what you think people should do . . .

What kind of privilege Doodledog?
The kind of privileges I and others experienced when our DC were small 45+ years ago , ie home-made or hand-me-down clothes, going without, no holidays abroad etc. That kind of "privilege" because there were no nurseries.

GrannyGravy13

I am sensing some resentment for people who are able to stay at home, look after their children and when the children are school age take them to and pick them up.

Envy maybe?

👏👏👏👏

Doodledog

ronib

I really don’t like the hype against a stay at home parent or unpaid carers looking after family. It’s shameful imo.

Shameful? Hype? No. It is shining a light on privilege.

Carers are an entirely different matter, and IMO it is shameful to put them in the same category.

What kind of privilege Doodledog?

Allira I am totally pro choice.

I don’t understand why people feel the need to try to persuade others that what they did is the right thing to do

Me neither Casdon. I am pointing out the alternatives but I am not trying to persuade anyone that what they choose to do is right or wrong.

That is another poster's agenda, not mine.
I am not the one condemning choice.

petra

ronib

Doodledog the last Conservative government set up changes to increase free childcare for working parents and the taxpayer is footing the bill.

Those parents who went out to work were probably paying tax.

The one working parent of a SAHP would be paying tax to subsidise the nursery fees of others who choose to both work.

It's how the system works. Childless people help to pay for the education and healthcare of people who have children.
Retired people often are taxpayers but do not have children in nursery or education.

It is how society works. We are all supporting each other in one way or another.

Allira

Casdon

I’m not denigrating those who stay at home though, I’m saying that it may become less of an option if the NI is not paid for them, which is in the gift of any government to change?
I do think it’s a bit patronising to suggest that those who work are envious of those who don’t though - I can only speak for myself but I’d have been crawling the walls at home, I loved the challenge of work and was a much better parent for it. We are all different.

It depends how long you were a SAHM. One child? Four or five years?
More children and it could be longer.

I wasn't crawling the walls at home because there is so much opportunity out there, so many needing your skills as a volunteer and there is no need to be housebound.
I don't understand why anyone thinks that a SAHM just sits at home or does housework all day long.
🤔

I didn’t say a SAHM spends all day doing housework Allira, you’re putting words in my mouth. I said I would have been crawling up the walls with boredom, not that other people would be. I’m not knocking volunteering, I do it now - but it’s not as academically challenging as a career, and it wouldn’t have been right for me, or for my children. I don’t understand why people feel the need to try to persuade others that what they did is the right thing to do - we all made our own choices, and did our own thing, there isn’t a right or wrong.

ronib

Doodledog the last Conservative government set up changes to increase free childcare for working parents and the taxpayer is footing the bill.

Those parents who went out to work were probably paying tax.

It has been 'personal choice' because others have been obliged to pay for it up to now.

This is something you have never explained, Doodledog, so we remain bemused.

What exactly are others paying for?