Will Messrs Reeves and Raynor Still Be Around This Time Next Year?

What point are you making there?

Aer you saying that we should all contribute to society or not? Sorry, but that is not clear to me.

Doodledog

Farzanah

Why don’t we consider tax as an honourable contribution to the well being of our society, not as something to be avoided if at all possible?
IMO those who have more should pay more, not as often is the case, using (legal) tax loopholes.

Absolutely! I couldn’t agree more.

In the year 2022-2023 Tax (PAYE/Self assessment) and NI made up 42% of tax revenue, VAT, Fuel Duty, IHT, CGT, Road Tax etc., made up the remaining 58%.

Whether you work, stay at home or retired every time you open your purse you are in all probability paying tax.

According to the House of Commons Library 10% of income tax payers with the largest income contribute over 60% of income tax receipts.

Out of all the countries in the world we rank 16th in the highest taxed

Ditto farzanah & doodledog 👏👏👏

Farzanah

Why don’t we consider tax as an honourable contribution to the well being of our society, not as something to be avoided if at all possible?
IMO those who have more should pay more, not as often is the case, using (legal) tax loopholes.

Absolutely! I couldn’t agree more.

Swift diversion there, Molly.

Anything to say about tax and opting out of contributions, or is it easier to try to move things to the divisive topic of Johnson?

Why don’t we consider tax as an honourable contribution to the well being of our society, not as something to be avoided if at all possible?
IMO those who have more should pay more, not as often is the case, using (legal) tax loopholes.

Syracute
Judging a person on appearance is really archaic. This has nothing to do with the thread . All the comments here about her haircut are just catty.

I thought that about all the comments people made about BJ, and I didn’t even like him. It didn’t stop them, and they still appear now on SM, even GN.
Archaic and catty. I don’t remember that being levelled at BJ’s appearance critics.

madalene

That was to Doodledog by the way.

I would not be averse to a citizen tax. It seems to me reasonable that everyone who can should contribute to a fair society. If I were in charge (which is not something I would put myself forward to be) I would have lots of get-out clauses as I understand that we are not created equal.

I would, however, expect there to be an assumption that allowing for life’s inequities we would all be expected to put in as much as we get out - why would that not be the case? What makes some assume that they don’t have to bother and others should?

ronib

I really don’t like the hype against a stay at home parent or unpaid carers looking after family. It’s shameful imo.

Shameful? Hype? No. It is shining a light on privilege.

Carers are an entirely different matter, and IMO it is shameful to put them in the same category.

madalene

^Your husband is paying for your access to the NHS and other infrastructure^

I don’t understand this point of view.
We all contribute to the NHS and other infrastructures through the taxes we pay. For all but the poorest of pensioners, we’re still paying income tax, but we and others who no longer work in paid employment, or have never worked in paid employment, pay taxes when we buy things, when we pay council tax, when we buy a new car or a different house etc.
I don’t understand the idea that those who don’t work don’t contribute, but in any case, I thought the provision of health care, education, roads, and other infrastructure was part of a civilised society. As I said, we all contribute.

What’s not to understand? Yes, if you contributed to a pension that attracts tax, you are contributing via that tax, as you did via the contributions your work made to society when you did it.

If your pension does not attract tax you still contributed when working (both in tax and in the production of goods and services), and nobody in the UK* would expect you to work till you die.

If you have never contributed though, your pension is equivalent to a benefit paid by others, as was your access to the benefits of living somewhere like the UK, such as healthcare, education etc which you took without paying for.

Fine if you were unable to work for some reason, such as caring for the sick or disabled yourself (or other reasons - there is no point in listing them as in a welfare state like ours they are valid reasons for not working, and long may that continue to be the case), but if you just chose not to work because you wanted to stay at home how can you ‘retire’? What are you ‘retiring’ from?

‘Paying tax’ by spending someone else’s money is not possible. If I earn £10 and give it to my child as pocket money, who pays the tax on the ice creams (or whatever) they buy with it? If they want to spend it on saving pandas, who has to declare the gift aid to get the tax credit?

Clue - not the one ‘donating’ someone else’s money.

As I keep saying I am 100% fine with paying into a welfare state - I’d much rather that than see old people starving if their families can’t afford to feed them, or children from poor families denied an education- but I do object to paying in being optional (and even more when those who opt out sneer at the benefit claimants who can’t hide their dependency behind husbands or others who are supposedly paying ’their share’)

*If I can’t say ‘first world’ I will say ‘countries such as the UK’ tedious though it u it s to type🙄. I have friends in ‘countries other than the UK’ who genuinely don’t understand ’free’ education heath and pensions as they have to provide everything themselves. When I point out that here they are all paid for by those who work they are again aghast that workers are paying for non working people to do nothing.

Syracute

biglouis

Whenever I see Rachel Thieves and that dreadful hair cut I think of the kids at the "cottage homes" near the secondary school I went to. The boys had what we called a pudding basin hair cut as though they had, literally, had a basin put on their heads and trimmed around. The girls had a slightly longer version - known as a bob. It was done by the house mother as no one was going to send kids in care to an expensive hairdresser.

You would think someone in public life could afford a professional hair cut. Maybe no one offered her a freebie for it so her mum did it with the kitchen scissors.

What a ridiculous comment ! Judging a person on appearance is really archaic. This has nothing to do with the thread . All the comments here about her haircut are just catty .

Aren't they just? I sometimes wonder about people.

madalene

growstuff you definitely suggested that ronib should/could get a job. She’s retired. Did you mean retired people should be getting a job?

OK. She complained that her DH was paying 50% tax. I'm not sure how, but I accepted it at face-value. What I was suggesting was that her DH could work less (and pay less tax). If she were to find paid work, she would either pay no or basic rate tax, so as a couple they could be better off.

I still don't understand how her DH (who also seems to be of pensionable age) is paying half his income in tax, but none of my business.

So rather than having a go at me, take a few moments to read what I've written.

madalene

Husbands, or anyone else, only pay their own NI contributions, which will eventually ensure they get a state pension. However, everyone, including those on benefits, or who don’t work for whatever reason, are still contributing to the tax take.

Are you suggesting a citizen’s tax to pay for NHS and other infrastructures(you said you weren’t, but we need to clarify.) Or are you suggesting no one should have access to the NHS or other infrastructures (bit difficult with roads) unless they work and pay income tax, because you believe they haven’t contributed? In your opinion obviously, as in mine, they have contributed.

NI isn't ring-fenced for state pensions. In theory, it covers all state benefits. In practice, however, the link between contributions paid and benefits received is very weak and NICs essentially act as a second income tax.

biglouis

Whenever I see Rachel Thieves and that dreadful hair cut I think of the kids at the "cottage homes" near the secondary school I went to. The boys had what we called a pudding basin hair cut as though they had, literally, had a basin put on their heads and trimmed around. The girls had a slightly longer version - known as a bob. It was done by the house mother as no one was going to send kids in care to an expensive hairdresser.

You would think someone in public life could afford a professional hair cut. Maybe no one offered her a freebie for it so her mum did it with the kitchen scissors.

What a ridiculous comment ! Judging a person on appearance is really archaic. This has nothing to do with the thread . All the comments here about her haircut are just catty .

ronib

I really don’t like the hype against a stay at home parent or unpaid carers looking after family. It’s shameful imo.

👏👏👏

That was to Doodledog by the way.

Husbands, or anyone else, only pay their own NI contributions, which will eventually ensure they get a state pension. However, everyone, including those on benefits, or who don’t work for whatever reason, are still contributing to the tax take.

Are you suggesting a citizen’s tax to pay for NHS and other infrastructures(you said you weren’t, but we need to clarify.) Or are you suggesting no one should have access to the NHS or other infrastructures (bit difficult with roads) unless they work and pay income tax, because you believe they haven’t contributed? In your opinion obviously, as in mine, they have contributed.

I really don’t like the hype against a stay at home parent or unpaid carers looking after family. It’s shameful imo.

growstuff you definitely suggested that ronib should/could get a job. She’s retired. Did you mean retired people should be getting a job?

Also, IMO husbands (or anyone else) only pay their own contributions. They don’t, and can’t pay for other people, however much tax they pay. The system is not set up like that. We all pay (if we pay) according to our own income, not the contributions of dependents.

growstuff if you didn’t mean it, why were you expecting me to work at well over retirement age? You most definitely suggested that!!

It’s not what I meant either, and in anticipation of deliberate ‘misunderstanding’ I spelt out that I didn’t mean people who had retired after a lifetime of working.

Allira

growstuff

ronib It would make sense if you found yourself a job because you'd probably only pay 20% tax and your husband could work less. It's up to you how you divide the work in your household, but Doodledog is correct. Your husband is paying for your access to the NHS and other infrastructure.

Your husband is paying for your access to the NHS and other infrastructure

Do you mean no-one should be able to retire - ie work until you drop because younger people are paying for our access to the NHS and other infrastructure?

😁

Err .. no, that's not what I meant.

madalene

^Your husband is paying for your access to the NHS and other infrastructure^

I don’t understand this point of view.
We all contribute to the NHS and other infrastructures through the taxes we pay. For all but the poorest of pensioners, we’re still paying income tax, but we and others who no longer work in paid employment, or have never worked in paid employment, pay taxes when we buy things, when we pay council tax, when we buy a new car or a different house etc.
I don’t understand the idea that those who don’t work don’t contribute, but in any case, I thought the provision of health care, education, roads, and other infrastructure was part of a civilised society. As I said, we all contribute.

But where do those who don't earn their own money get it from? People don't have to work to earn money, if they have enough assets and can earn interest, but if they don't generate money themselves, they're spending somebody else's money.

I don’t understand the idea that those who don’t work don’t contribute, but in any case, I thought the provision of health care, education, roads, and other infrastructure was part of a civilised society. As I said, we all contribute.

Yes, we do. Less than half of Government revenue comes from income tax and NI contributions.