Conservative Party Leader announcement...

ronib

Casdon let’s leave feelings out of this. Exactly what effect does an opposition ever have on governments with huge majorities? Some concrete examples are failing to spring up regardless of party. Is an opposition merely a government in waiting?

Perhaps this will help ronib.
www.hansardsociety.org.uk/blog/multi-party-opposition

ronib

Casdon it is a very serious question and I am scratching my head wondering exactly what impact Labour had during the last 14 years on a day to day basis.
I am afraid that a dictatorship is exactly what we have dressed up as democracy.

A dictatorship dressed up as democracy - what do you base that claim on ronib

If you’re suggesting the opposition never hold the government to account, I disagree. There have been some real battles during my lifetime. I may have more faith in our politicians than you

Casdon that’s a link about the machinery of government but I was thinking more about end products and how little impact any opposition has on calming the worst excesses of legislation eg WFA and farmers’ inheritance taxes in recent times.

The opposition represents the voice of UK citizens who do not agree with the government.

In this relationship the public and the press present alternative views and sometimes policy, which can and has in the past reached a pitch where a government has to change or adapt its policy. ie a powerful voice of public opinion.

An opposition can work with powerful interest groups. (Business, the Unions, charities, political action groups)

It can also work with the government when there is agreement to make change happen or for the sake of the country (covid). It can also liase internationally.

Iam64 holding the government to account seems a complete non starter. A bit like Canute, which waves were held back by any opposition?

In terms of the interests of farmers it's definitely an example of where a strong interest group if properly organised with positive ideas could effect change. Negotiations do sometimes work!

Wyllow3 there’s no evidence that the Labour government will budge at all on taxing farmers.

I’ll be honest ronib I’m amazed that we are even having this discussion. I’m going to bow out before I lose my cool, because I don’t think you are thinking clearly about the principles of opposition, and why it’s essential in any democracy.

I wasn't thinking of specific change on the Inheritance tax in the very short term, but seeing it in the perspective of proper medium terms plans for food production and climate/wilding care which involves grants relevant to smaller farmers as we looking towards their importance in food security and the climate

It's one of those areas there is no reason there shouldn't be cross party planning.

An example - I can remember Cameron backing down on cuts for disabled people after the combined pressure of the opposition and major action by disability groups.
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/08/cameron-disabled-champion-paula-peters-cuts-most-vulnerable

both these are examples of the opposition working with big public initiatives.

Wyllow3 but without the impetus of Paula Peters would the opposition in Parliament to Cameron have woken up ? Well done Paula. Now the farmers need their champion and the just over pension credit poor.

It wasn't just Paula Peters, it was organisation in and out of parliament. She was one of the leading voices - but hardly alone.

The opposition held the last Conservative government to account. That’s why we have a Labour government

Paula Peter’s has some very choice comments about Starmer so interesting that he seems to have found himself in the same corner as Cameron against disabled people all those years ago.
I have to agree with Paula when she asks when are wealthy tax evaders going to be stopped?

Iam64 everyone knows that Reform split the Conservative vote. Nothing at all to do with the effectiveness of Labour in opposition.

Where do you get this stuff from ronib?
Follow this link to the 2015 election results, and spot the difference.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2015/results

Wondering why Jenrick went for Justice. Any ideas (apart from ECHR) Not exactly a major role - seems rather token. or a role where he isnt obliged to agree with Badenoch on things he doesn't agree with.

Casdon I was reading the Socialist Worker article …. I don’t understand what point you are trying to make? It’s good that there are still socialist voices left in the world as Parliament seems to have forgotten them these days…..

ronib

Iam64 everyone knows that Reform split the Conservative vote. Nothing at all to do with the effectiveness of Labour in opposition.

Ronib, you are quite right, Reform did split the conservative vote. I am really pleased Kemi has won the vote. She stands the best chance of getting rid of this truly awful Labour Government at the next election.

If you look at the 2015 election result ronib, you will see that UKIP got over 12% of the vote. The Tories won quite easily. They lost the election in 2024 because they were held to account by the electorate and found seriously wanting. The vote share they had in 2015 and the subsequent elections was split three ways+ by 2024 and of course other parties benefitted. This is really basic stuff you know.

Casdon if the Labour Party had been truthful in its manifesto I can imagine a different outcome.

You’re not hearing reason ronib, you keep bringing every point to your own argument about the current government. Please, just for a minute, put aside your political views and think logically about the role of the opposition to the government of the day. Any day, any government. If you don’t think that it is important you will have no interest at all in the appointment of the new leader of the opposition or her cabinet. That’s what this discussion is meant to be about.

Basic stuff is that Labour lost the election in 2015 because not enough voters thought they would be better than the Conservatives.
They lost the 2017 election for the same reason.
There were all sorts of claims about vote numbers, and how close (2,227 votes) they were to winning, but they didn’t because not enough people voted for them.
By the same token, people wouldn’t accept the Brexit leave vote won by a difference of over a million votes, this time they used percentages to make the difference seem smaller.
The reason is the same though. The party that loses didn’t get enough votes to win.
That’s basic.

Casdon I have been thinking about the role of the opposition in some depth. I don’t know that Badenoch will be in the role for very long. The Conservative Party doesn’t seem to be a very united party but time will tell.

The NFU is organising a rally in London on the 19th November. For some reason, I thought that the opposition meant the opposition in Parliament itself whereas the most strident opposition is in the streets.

Mollygo

Basic stuff is that Labour lost the election in 2015 because not enough voters thought they would be better than the Conservatives.
They lost the 2017 election for the same reason.
There were all sorts of claims about vote numbers, and how close (2,227 votes) they were to winning, but they didn’t because not enough people voted for them.
By the same token, people wouldn’t accept the Brexit leave vote won by a difference of over a million votes, this time they used percentages to make the difference seem smaller.
The reason is the same though. The party that loses didn’t get enough votes to win.
That’s basic.

I’m not disputing any of that though Mollygo? The Tories didn’t lose in 2024 because Reform took their vote away, that was why I posted the 2015 result to demonstrate, but of course every election has its own story, and of course parties lose because not enough people vote for them - it’s multi factorial every time.
I presume you don’t agree with ronib that the opposition is unimportant?

I think the opposition should be important, but I often wonder what purpose they serve.
They often just criticise without offering any alternatives (in case the other party adopts them, is the usual excuse)
But it’s amusing to see all those people shouting down any criticism of the KS or the LP as wrong, because he/they had only been in power for
one day,
three days,
one week,
one month, etc. etc
doing exactly the same to a person who is only just been elected.