Tuition fees are to be increased.

The rise in wages of university teachers have been very modest indeed over the last few years, under rate for most groups, but nevertheless have to be paid for, as well as everything else equipment and so on. (the modest pay rises have been done well, people at lower end of lecturer pay getting a higher %.

Nurses do need 3 yrs technical training whether you call it a degree doesn’t matter, on a great many wards there is only one “nurse” on duty much of the time, all the other staff are Clinical Support Workers of mixed experience, low waged and short training.
I have no idea how you get more UK nurses trained, free tuition might be a start.

David49

Nurses do need 3 yrs technical training whether you call it a degree doesn’t matter, on a great many wards there is only one “nurse” on duty much of the time, all the other staff are Clinical Support Workers of mixed experience, low waged and short training.
I have no idea how you get more UK nurses trained, free tuition might be a start.

What do you mean whether you call it a degree doesn’t matter? It’s subject to the same level of academic rigour as other degrees, and has the same status, of course it matters.
A ward never to my knowledge operates with only one registered nurse, there are always at least two, including at night. Healthcare support staff are often extremely experienced, some of them are in training, some have additional training for specific roles - I’ve never known a shift with all rookies. I don’t know where exactly you have experienced these conditions, but it most certainly isn’t the norm.

Casdon

David49

Nurses do need 3 yrs technical training whether you call it a degree doesn’t matter, on a great many wards there is only one “nurse” on duty much of the time, all the other staff are Clinical Support Workers of mixed experience, low waged and short training.
I have no idea how you get more UK nurses trained, free tuition might be a start.

What do you mean whether you call it a degree doesn’t matter? It’s subject to the same level of academic rigour as other degrees, and has the same status, of course it matters.
A ward never to my knowledge operates with only one registered nurse, there are always at least two, including at night. Healthcare support staff are often extremely experienced, some of them are in training, some have additional training for specific roles - I’ve never known a shift with all rookies. I don’t know where exactly you have experienced these conditions, but it most certainly isn’t the norm.

There is controversy wether nurses need a degree, 3 yrs training is needed, years ago nurses didn’t need a degree, they went straight onto the ward as a student nurse, then qualified as SEN or SRN later, many think that was a better system.

Since then the number of nurses has fallen sharply, weekends and especially at night wards are very short staffed, I’m sure they should have 2 nurses but if they are not available they use CSWs. I fully accept that an experienced CSW is an acceptable alternative but some of the inexperienced ones are awful.

My wife had several spells in hospital I wish I could say the nursing was wonderful, it wasn’t

There must be a better way. It's almost depressing to think that people leaving university will probably be saddled with a sizeable debt into middle-agevand beyond, because it's quite a truism that it's very easy to get into debt and very hard to get out of it.

You can have a meticulously worked out plan to pay it back on schedule, as long as your employment goals come to fruition, but anything can suddenly drive a plan into the buffers: long term illness, unemployment, redundancy, finding out the hard way that your degree isn't what employers are looking for etc, etc.

Where is the controversy you speak of regarding whether nurses should have degrees or not David49? It’s not within the nursing profession, or amongst the people who apply to be nurses. It seems a rather old fashioned take to me, and suggests that nursing is not worthy of higher level academic study and practice.
10 years ago I would have agreed that the role of the SEN was missed, but the HCA role has become a gateway now, and wards have staff with a range of knowledge and expertise, so the gap isn’t there - it’s lack of staff, and staff with poor attitudes that causes poor nursing care, not a lack of flexibility in the workforce. I’ve never known any ward to run with less than two qualified nurses regardless of how short staffed the hospital is, hell and high water is moved to make sure that doesn’t happen. It must be different where you are.

mae13

There must be a better way. It's almost depressing to think that people leaving university will probably be saddled with a sizeable debt into middle-agevand beyond, because it's quite a truism that it's very easy to get into debt and very hard to get out of it.

You can have a meticulously worked out plan to pay it back on schedule, as long as your employment goals come to fruition, but anything can suddenly drive a plan into the buffers: long term illness, unemployment, redundancy, finding out the hard way that your degree isn't what employers are looking for etc, etc.

But it's not like other debts. Long-term illness and unemployment mean that no repayments need to be made during that period. Yes, the debt will continue to accrue interest, but (unlike other debts), it will be written off at the end of 35 years. Repayments are related to income, so it's actually more like an extra tax than a debt repayment.

David49

Casdon

David49

Nurses do need 3 yrs technical training whether you call it a degree doesn’t matter, on a great many wards there is only one “nurse” on duty much of the time, all the other staff are Clinical Support Workers of mixed experience, low waged and short training.
I have no idea how you get more UK nurses trained, free tuition might be a start.

What do you mean whether you call it a degree doesn’t matter? It’s subject to the same level of academic rigour as other degrees, and has the same status, of course it matters.
A ward never to my knowledge operates with only one registered nurse, there are always at least two, including at night. Healthcare support staff are often extremely experienced, some of them are in training, some have additional training for specific roles - I’ve never known a shift with all rookies. I don’t know where exactly you have experienced these conditions, but it most certainly isn’t the norm.

There is controversy wether nurses need a degree, 3 yrs training is needed, years ago nurses didn’t need a degree, they went straight onto the ward as a student nurse, then qualified as SEN or SRN later, many think that was a better system.

Since then the number of nurses has fallen sharply, weekends and especially at night wards are very short staffed, I’m sure they should have 2 nurses but if they are not available they use CSWs. I fully accept that an experienced CSW is an acceptable alternative but some of the inexperienced ones are awful.

My wife had several spells in hospital I wish I could say the nursing was wonderful, it wasn’t

Well, I've had more contact with hospitals and nurses over the last couple of years than I've had in the rest of my life. I can honestly say that the nurses have been wonderful. They have, without exception, been knowledgeable and caring. Some of them have gone out of their way to answer my questions and deal with concerns. Most of them have been young, so must have been graduates and I have been incredibly impressed in the improvement from the "old days".

But what if, at some point in the future, the debt is 'sold on' to another agency? Would they be bound to honour any current rules and safeguards?

mae13

But what if, at some point in the future, the debt is 'sold on' to another agency? Would they be bound to honour any current rules and safeguards?

It's already been sold. I suspect safeguards are in place for those currently with debt. They signed a contract. The terms could be changed for future students, but I can't see that the government would allow the system itself to be changed.

The rise in university tuition fees isn’t very large compared with the already expensive fees. However, it is yet another broken promise from KS who said before he was elected that he wanted to abolish university fees. It may not be a large increase, but it’s going in the wrong direction.

growstuff

mae13

There must be a better way. It's almost depressing to think that people leaving university will probably be saddled with a sizeable debt into middle-agevand beyond, because it's quite a truism that it's very easy to get into debt and very hard to get out of it.

You can have a meticulously worked out plan to pay it back on schedule, as long as your employment goals come to fruition, but anything can suddenly drive a plan into the buffers: long term illness, unemployment, redundancy, finding out the hard way that your degree isn't what employers are looking for etc, etc.

But it's not like other debts. Long-term illness and unemployment mean that no repayments need to be made during that period. Yes, the debt will continue to accrue interest, but (unlike other debts), it will be written off at the end of 35 years. Repayments are related to income, so it's actually more like an extra tax than a debt repayment.

The rules over the years regarding repayments have varied so much thst it's often difficult to work out. Presumably, if the whole lot is not paid off at the end of the term then the rest is written off. This could be 25 years, 30 years, age 65, depending on when the loan was taken out and which part of the UK.

With income tax, NI, student loan repayments, no wonder some young people find it impossible to buy a property as not all graduate jobs are highly paid.

madalene

The rise in university tuition fees isn’t very large compared with the already expensive fees. However, it is yet another broken promise from KS who said before he was elected that he wanted to abolish university fees. It may not be a large increase, but it’s going in the wrong direction.

This is not true re a broken promise

KS made his remarks about fees when he was up for the Labour Party Leadership election in 2020

However circumstances have changed and Labour were clear before the election:

Sky news May 24th

Labour's Bridget Phillipson criticised for refusing to rule out tuition-fee hike

news.sky.com/story/labours-bridget-phillipson-criticised-for-refusing-to-rule-out-tuition-fee-hike-13142619

it was clearly on the cards: they didn't want to do it, but as people have said above, its actually a very modest hike given that its been the same for 7 years and the numbers of international students bailing the system out have shrunk.

Labour Party members will always defend whatever the Labour Party does.

Allira

growstuff

mae13

There must be a better way. It's almost depressing to think that people leaving university will probably be saddled with a sizeable debt into middle-agevand beyond, because it's quite a truism that it's very easy to get into debt and very hard to get out of it.

You can have a meticulously worked out plan to pay it back on schedule, as long as your employment goals come to fruition, but anything can suddenly drive a plan into the buffers: long term illness, unemployment, redundancy, finding out the hard way that your degree isn't what employers are looking for etc, etc.

But it's not like other debts. Long-term illness and unemployment mean that no repayments need to be made during that period. Yes, the debt will continue to accrue interest, but (unlike other debts), it will be written off at the end of 35 years. Repayments are related to income, so it's actually more like an extra tax than a debt repayment.

The rules over the years regarding repayments have varied so much thst it's often difficult to work out. Presumably, if the whole lot is not paid off at the end of the term then the rest is written off. This could be 25 years, 30 years, age 65, depending on when the loan was taken out and which part of the UK.

With income tax, NI, student loan repayments, no wonder some young people find it impossible to buy a property as not all graduate jobs are highly paid.

The rules have changed for different year groups, but students know when they take out loans what the terms are and those haven't changed.

The loans students are currently taking out will be paid off after 35 years. My son's loans will be written off after 30 years, while my daughter's loans will be written off after 25 years. They knew at the beginning when they'd be written off.

The length of time graduates will have before their loans are written off matters more to the graduates than the actual cost of the courses.

madalene

Labour Party members will always defend whatever the Labour Party does.

Why is that relevant? I'm not a Labour Party member.

I'm just explaining how the system works and why it's not that important that course fees have increased.

I think your original post needed some clarification is all. And Labour supporters on GN do certainly not always defend.

Its unfortunate fees had to be raised, but as so many have said above, relatively modest and inevitable.

I feel strongly that nurses should be recognised as having achieved degree level learning. As well as recognition a degree is a transferrable qualification.

Fees had to be raised because universities are going bankrupt. They're cutting courses and staff like never before. They'd come to rely on foreign students, but the numbers have nose-dived.

Exactly, Growstuff. Just before this announcement a friend who is in a high academic post at a university told us about the redundancies they are having to make, together with cuts in courses offered. Universities are struggling without an increase in tuition fees.

Allira

We need more apprenticeships.

I absolutely agree. Far too many young people end up with very expensive degrees in subjects which are supposedly vocational but for which the demand is very low

Cabbie21

Exactly, Growstuff. Just before this announcement a friend who is in a high academic post at a university told us about the redundancies they are having to make, together with cuts in courses offered. Universities are struggling without an increase in tuition fees.

My partner is a professor at a Russell Group uni. He's retiring this December, but he's not being replaced, nor are the five people he had working for him, but are on temporary contracts. They'll be kept until the current cohort of masters students has finished, but then they won't be running the course again as it stands. Brexit was the beginning of the end for the course because EU funding dried up, as did postgrad researchers, who didn't want to work in a uni which could no longer lead on cross-European courses.

cc

Allira

We need more apprenticeships.

I absolutely agree. Far too many young people end up with very expensive degrees in subjects which are supposedly vocational but for which the demand is very low

How do you propose apprenticeships are funded?

growstuff

Fees had to be raised because universities are going bankrupt. They're cutting courses and staff like never before. They'd come to rely on foreign students, but the numbers have nose-dived.

And the numbers will nose-dive further when the number of overseas children coming to our public schools decreases because of the VAT on school fees.
Where I worked (Russell Group university) half the undergraduates were from overseas and the vast majority of those had been educated here in the private school system.

cc

growstuff

Fees had to be raised because universities are going bankrupt. They're cutting courses and staff like never before. They'd come to rely on foreign students, but the numbers have nose-dived.

And the numbers will nose-dive further when the number of overseas children coming to our public schools decreases because of the VAT on school fees.
Where I worked (Russell Group university) half the undergraduates were from overseas and the vast majority of those had been educated here in the private school system.

Somehow I doubt that VAT will affect the number of overseas in private schools, although the economies and currency exchange rates might.

growstuff

cc

Allira

We need more apprenticeships.

I absolutely agree. Far too many young people end up with very expensive degrees in subjects which are supposedly vocational but for which the demand is very low

How do you propose apprenticeships are funded?

There's already a system in place and I understand that funds are available to pay for some of the employers' costs.
The advantage is that the young people are actually working during their training. They may often do day release courses, but these are much less expensive than full time degrees and because employers are involved the courses will be targetted towards useful education and skills. Employers are rewarded with an employee with the skills that are needed.
My daughter is a foster carer and one of her girls has gone into a Civil Service apprenticeship rather than go to university. She won't have the cost of a university education hanging over her for years, but will be earning pretty quickly.
Other employers sponsor promising young employees to take a vocational degree such as engineering, with the carrot of a job at the end of the course.
I appreciate that for some more academic students nothing but a full-time degree in the academic subject of their choice will do, but for many an apprenticeship is a much more practical choice.