Amsterdam attacks

Some of the squad were not Jews ? But some were, should we
expect Jews to wear The Star Of David ?

growstuff

I don't agree with supporting Jews unconditionally if they behave abominably.

Presumably then, you support NO group of people however they are compartmentalised.

Because in every grouping of people you will have those - even if it's a tiny minority - whose behaviour is unacceptable.

So what you're saying is you withdraw some of your support for a whole swathe of people because some of them, probably unknown to the majority and quite possible in another country or on the other side of the world, did something wrong.

A bit like 1930's Germany then.

Same here love0c and the pro Palestinians did behave abominably in Amsterdam.
growstuff I understand you’re invested in this subject as you’ve said on GN that your DD has an Arab heritage background partner, but that doesn’t negate the way that Jews have always been treated throughout history or any physical attacks on them here, Amsterdam or in other countries.

I most definitely do not and can not support the Palestinians when they behave abominably.

Even the Israeli national team has players in the squad who aren't Jewish (Mohammad Abu Fani, Mamoud Jaber, Ramzi Safouri, Anan Khalaili and Shareef Keouf).

I don't agree with supporting Jews unconditionally if they behave abominably.

By the way, Maccabi Tel Aviv isn't a Jewish team. It's an Israeli team, which has had (and still has) non-Jewish players. At least one of its players, Issouf Sissokho, is a Malian Christian.

But Rosie51 is right to say that it is impossible to ascertain the correct timeline of the incidents because none of us has that information.

That's not true. There's video evidence, some of which is date/time stamped. Sky was one of the first news channels to report the violence. Their first report was about Maccabi Tel Aviv chanting and the attack on the Morrocan taxi driver with no mention at all about any of the retaliatory attacks. Even the Amsterdam police has now admitted this.

Your last sentence Rosie51 is very pertinent and perceptive. I think I understand what you are saying in this discussion. That the crime is actually being Jewish, before a Jew even opens their mouth or engages in any untoward physical activity. Being Jewish attracts hostility, always has done, and Anniebach is right, always will around the entire world.
I am educated and close enough to the issue, to know in a small way, that being Jewish comes with the harsh realisation that antipathy towards you will exist for no reason at all. It is deep-seated and inexplicable.

I accept that the Maccabi Tel Aviv fans didn't exactly help themselves in the Amsterdam situation. But Rosie51 is right to say that it is impossible to ascertain the correct timeline of the incidents because none of us has that information. And anyway, how can anyone put an finger on exactly when insidious thoughts to stage an attack are being planned by either side? The pro-Palestinian campaigners had been protesting about the Jewish team participating in the matches for quite some time. Their animosity was already evident and building.

The chants about the children were inexcusable, and I agree with Wyllow3 that they caused embarrassment to peaceful citizens in Amsterdam. That is not a clever way to gain support for the Jewish cause. But support them one must, not just because of the WW2 context, but because they are eternally and universally persecuted just for being Jewish, and that, in my opinion, is out of order.

growstuff

Rosie51 There was more than vile chanting. The Maccabi Tel Aviv fans attacked the taxi driver and his car with a chain. They had tooled themselves up before there was any retaliation. The time stamps on some of the published videos and witnesses have shown pretty conclusively the sequence of events.

Sorry, my post obviously didn't make it clear that I was referencing the protest chants and Israel flag burning that happens in the UK. I don't think you'd accept that as an excuse for physical violence against Muslims, but maybe to be fair you would.

Until all the evidence is available it's impossible to ascertain the framework of the incidents. How many attacked the taxi driver and does that make all Maccabi fans guilty? Were the pro Palestinian participants sure they only targeted the guilty? Did they even care or was being Jewish guilt enough?

Anniebach

Antisemitism is rising in every country ,

Annie, I'm very aware of that. I was reading up specifically on Denmark

(I also found some relevant things about increasing hostility from Denmarks Far right).

The Maccobi fans are now back in Israel. The people left behind, to repeat my point, I believe has been made worse by those fans.

I'm sure they would not go on the streets shouting f* the Arabs or terrible remarks about Palestinian children! No decent person would, especially re the children.

Oreo

I just wondered about Denmark.Jews face antisemitism and hostility in every city but see what you mean.

So do Arabs. (But I can't imagine for one moment that you can accept that.)

Anniebach

Antisemitism is rising in every country ,

Do you honestly think that most informed people don't know that?

Are you also aware that there are some Israelis who are racist? Or that hatred of Arabs and Muslims isn't rising too?

The truth is that people are becoming more entrenched and bigoted (and uneducated).

Antisemitism is rising in every country ,

I had been looking up the rise in anti-Semitism in Denmark as a whole and it struck me that it was likely the consequences would extend beyond Amsterdam.

I just wondered about Denmark.Jews face antisemitism and hostility in every city but see what you mean.

Oreo

Wyllow3

Some of my thoughts behind my earlier post, and suggestions, were that the victims here are surely the local Jewish people having to live with anti-semitism day by day in Denmark.

How - in any way at all - did it help them to have the Maccobi fans chanting truly horrible hateful slogans in the streets, just inflaming matters?

You mean Amsterdam?

I meant what I said, it will have affected well beyond the City of Amsterdam, because of what happened in that city.

Rosie51 There was more than vile chanting. The Maccabi Tel Aviv fans attacked the taxi driver and his car with a chain. They had tooled themselves up before there was any retaliation. The time stamps on some of the published videos and witnesses have shown pretty conclusively the sequence of events.

Rosie51

growstuff

Iam64

It’s clear from investigations so far that a toxic mix of antisemitism, hooliganism and anger over the war in Palestine/Isreal and other countries in the Middle East led to the dreadful scenes in Amsterdam. The mayor claims not to have been aware the match was high risk despite trouble brewing before the match. Police say Maccabi fans tore down a Palestinian flag the day before the match. It’s clear some Maccabi fans were looking for trouble and Palestian supporters were happy to join in. Planned use of scooters, driven by masked men chased and attacked people, mostly those in Maccabi colours.
So political rather than straightforward football hooliganism. It’s irritating to see attempts to deny anti semitism by claiming Maccabi supporters ‘started it’.
That’s the criticism offered levelled at victims. That they provoked attacks

But Iam64 the Maccabi Tel Aviv fans did provoke the attacks. I'm not denying the existence of antisemitism, either now or in history, but I don't accept that people are victims if they go round provoking others. The Maccabi Tel Aviv fans would have known very well that there would be retaliation.

I've seen images of pro Palestine protesters burning Israeli flags. Does that mean they wouldn't be victims if some Israel supporters decide to retaliate?
I don't condone the vile chanting, but can chanting be a justifiable excuse for violent retaliation? Some of the chanting on the Palestine protest marches in London is seen as provocative, I doubt you'd condone violence as a counter to that.

I haven't seen footage of burning of Israeli flags in Amsterdam, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I don't condone the violence on either side. My point all along has been about bow biased the reporting has been. It is quite clear - and even the Dutch police admit it - that the Maccabi Tel Aviv instigated the violence. They started their chants almost as soon as they arrived and the attack on the Moroccan taxi driver happened before there were any reported attacks on them. They started ripping up bits of metal and wood to use as weapons. Why did they do that? My suggestion is they were looking for a fight and didn't like it when they got one.

Just to remind people ... they were chanting 'f*ck Arabs', calling for the IDF to kill them and mocking dead Arab children. In the past they have chanted about raping Arab women and drinking their blood when they're dead. Is it really any wonder that Arabs retaliated?

Wyllow3

Some of my thoughts behind my earlier post, and suggestions, were that the victims here are surely the local Jewish people having to live with anti-semitism day by day in Denmark.

How - in any way at all - did it help them to have the Maccobi fans chanting truly horrible hateful slogans in the streets, just inflaming matters?

It didn't help them at all. I'm not sure of the extent of anti-semitism in Holland, but the kind of vile chants will have given anti-semites an excuse for what they do.

Hopefully all sporting events including football where Israeli fans attend will be properly policed.

The Mayor and police in Amsterdam are either innocent beyond anything ever seen, inept or didn’t care what happened.

Good post Iam64 👏🏻👏🏻

Wyllow3

Some of my thoughts behind my earlier post, and suggestions, were that the victims here are surely the local Jewish people having to live with anti-semitism day by day in Denmark.

How - in any way at all - did it help them to have the Maccobi fans chanting truly horrible hateful slogans in the streets, just inflaming matters?

You mean Amsterdam?

Good point which has been ignored so far Rosie51