Amsterdam attacks

Some of my thoughts behind my earlier post, and suggestions, were that the victims here are surely the local Jewish people having to live with anti-semitism day by day in Denmark.

How - in any way at all - did it help them to have the Maccobi fans chanting truly horrible hateful slogans in the streets, just inflaming matters?

growstuff

Iam64

It’s clear from investigations so far that a toxic mix of antisemitism, hooliganism and anger over the war in Palestine/Isreal and other countries in the Middle East led to the dreadful scenes in Amsterdam. The mayor claims not to have been aware the match was high risk despite trouble brewing before the match. Police say Maccabi fans tore down a Palestinian flag the day before the match. It’s clear some Maccabi fans were looking for trouble and Palestian supporters were happy to join in. Planned use of scooters, driven by masked men chased and attacked people, mostly those in Maccabi colours.
So political rather than straightforward football hooliganism. It’s irritating to see attempts to deny anti semitism by claiming Maccabi supporters ‘started it’.
That’s the criticism offered levelled at victims. That they provoked attacks

But Iam64 the Maccabi Tel Aviv fans did provoke the attacks. I'm not denying the existence of antisemitism, either now or in history, but I don't accept that people are victims if they go round provoking others. The Maccabi Tel Aviv fans would have known very well that there would be retaliation.

I've seen images of pro Palestine protesters burning Israeli flags. Does that mean they wouldn't be victims if some Israel supporters decide to retaliate?
I don't condone the vile chanting, but can chanting be a justifiable excuse for violent retaliation? Some of the chanting on the Palestine protest marches in London is seen as provocative, I doubt you'd condone violence as a counter to that.

Here you are:

www.msn.com/en-ca/sports/soccer/just-in-case-mossad-agents-to-join-maccabi-tel-aviv-fc-trip-to-amsterdam/ar-AA1txYMn

Strangely, although Mossad are in the headline there is no mention of them in the actual article. What were they going to do if 'just in case' actually happened? 'Just in case' of what?

Is it usual for a country to send its intelligence agents (who also undertake covert operations) off with a football team on an away fixture?

Iam64

It’s clear from investigations so far that a toxic mix of antisemitism, hooliganism and anger over the war in Palestine/Isreal and other countries in the Middle East led to the dreadful scenes in Amsterdam. The mayor claims not to have been aware the match was high risk despite trouble brewing before the match. Police say Maccabi fans tore down a Palestinian flag the day before the match. It’s clear some Maccabi fans were looking for trouble and Palestian supporters were happy to join in. Planned use of scooters, driven by masked men chased and attacked people, mostly those in Maccabi colours.
So political rather than straightforward football hooliganism. It’s irritating to see attempts to deny anti semitism by claiming Maccabi supporters ‘started it’.
That’s the criticism offered levelled at victims. That they provoked attacks

But Iam64 the Maccabi Tel Aviv fans did provoke the attacks. I'm not denying the existence of antisemitism, either now or in history, but I don't accept that people are victims if they go round provoking others. The Maccabi Tel Aviv fans would have known very well that there would be retaliation.

Good post Iam64.
It’s strange, given the circumstances in the Middle East, and that there had been a week of pro Palestinian protests in Dam Square, that the mayor of Amsterdam claims to have not been aware that the match was high risk. I would have thought that the political situation re the war in Israel would have very much made this match a high risk event, and therefore the city needed very high numbers of police visible. It has been said that there were no police around in the city, which is partly why these attacks were able to happen, with no authority available to intervene.

Wyllow3

Thats what the Dutch newspaper De Telegraf reported Maizie but I've not seen other reports?

www-telegraaf-nl.translate.goog/sport/160352077/mossad-reist-met-maccabi-tel-aviv-mee-naar-amsterdam-voor-uitduel-met-ajax?_x_tr_sl=nl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc

It was announced in one of the Israeli newspapers before the fans even left Israel. I've seen so much about this whole affair now that I can't put my finger on it straight away, but I'll have a hunt.

Thats what the Dutch newspaper De Telegraf reported Maizie but I've not seen other reports?

www-telegraaf-nl.translate.goog/sport/160352077/mossad-reist-met-maccabi-tel-aviv-mee-naar-amsterdam-voor-uitduel-met-ajax?_x_tr_sl=nl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc

It’s clear from investigations so far that a toxic mix of antisemitism, hooliganism and anger over the war in Palestine/Isreal and other countries in the Middle East led to the dreadful scenes in Amsterdam. The mayor claims not to have been aware the match was high risk despite trouble brewing before the match. Police say Maccabi fans tore down a Palestinian flag the day before the match. It’s clear some Maccabi fans were looking for trouble and Palestian supporters were happy to join in. Planned use of scooters, driven by masked men chased and attacked people, mostly those in Maccabi colours.
So political rather than straightforward football hooliganism. It’s irritating to see attempts to deny anti semitism by claiming Maccabi supporters ‘started it’.
That’s the criticism offered levelled at victims. That they provoked attacks

escaped denial will continue and fault/blame will be placed on Jews

but I do think that it should be made clear to the fans by their own club management and possibly Israeli authorities that any provoking attacks and chanting are out of order. When it comes down to mocking children who've died surely its obviously not OK?

I'm sure everyone would agree with that, Wyllow, but why did Israel send Mossad agents with the fans?

Anniebach

Then the Israeli football team were prepared for trouble and it was there waiting for them

Yes, Anniebach, I see it like that.
Apparently there had been rising tension in Amsterdam for several days before the Thursday match because it was also a Pro Palestinian week of protests in Dam Square. Maybe the timing was unfortunate.

it should be made clear to the fans by their own club management and possibly Israeli authorities that any provoking attacks and chanting are out of order
I agree that something like that needs to be done Wyllow 3.
Every football supporter, everywhere, should have the right to attend a match without living in fear of encountering violence before, during or after the event. Equally every football fan should behave responsibly and respectfully, especially when playing away, and not provoke attacks.

Chanting is more problematic because we witness this from demonstrators in the streets totally separate from the actual football. It would be easy to ban flags and placards, but I'm not sure how chanting can be effectively curtailed?

Good post * Wyllow3*. 👍

Then the Israeli football team were prepared for trouble and it was there waiting for them

Absolutely, Annie. I intended my post to be about not making things worse.

Wyllow if antisemitism is made worse it has to exist to be made worse,

Thought about this quite a bit Escaped

I think that the Maccabi fans did arrive with the intention of inflaming an ongoing situation, and the end result was likely to make anti-semitism worse, not better

International sporting and similar events can be positive tho very difficult.

I don't think banning Maccabi is the way ahead at all,

but I do think that it should be made clear to the fans by their own club management and possibly Israeli authorities that any provoking attacks and chanting are out of order. When it comes down to mocking children who've died surely its obviously not OK?

If they are then attacked planned or otherwise then of course full force of the law upon those who do that.

If they carry on then I suspect more countries will say "not here" and that helps no one?

Oreo

The Turkish authorities moved the match to Hungary and it will be a closed match, but not cos the Israeli fans were ‘hoping for a punch up’ at all.Turkey is very much a Muslim country and didn’t want to risk the visiting fans being beaten or worse.
Hungary is very much a Christian country so there was a risk to fans there as well.

Yes, interesting!
Every country will try to do what works best for them under the circumstances. As someone said earlier, the issue won't go away. Pro Palestinian supporters want the Maccabi Tel Aviv team completely banned from playing. That seems unfair, and this is why tighter controls at the matches are being introduced.

Oreo

Why assume growstuff that only your own comments are well informed, a strange attitude it seems to me.

I don't understand the attitude that my comments are deemed worthless and distracting, when several posters here have thanked me for my posts and careful research from various foreign sources? Plus my recent visit to the museums in the city, and a private tour guide on the subject! Hey-ho!

I also know there are a couple of knowledgeable GNs on WW2 in Europe and the Holocaust, but even their contributions are swept aside as being irrelevant because they don’t fit the required narrative.

The Turkish authorities moved the match to Hungary and it will be a closed match, but not cos the Israeli fans were ‘hoping for a punch up’ at all.Turkey is very much a Muslim country and didn’t want to risk the visiting fans being beaten or worse.
Hungary is very much a Christian country so there was a risk to fans there as well.

Why assume growstuff that only your own comments are well informed, a strange attitude it seems to me.

Oreo

escaped

I was reading French newspapers today, and it seems French pro Palestinian supporters are being provocative now too. They have been told they are not allowed to display flags or placards at tomorrow's match at the Stade de France. Instead, they protested by decorating the FFF's headquarters in Paris with Palestinian flags and placards, with messages such as "No to the France-Israel match at Stade de France," "Champions League of Genocide". They even occupied the football federation's headquarters to protest.

The French pro Palestinians will do their best to disrupt things and maybe use violence so glad the French police are on top of it.

The Paris police managed to control the Olympics and I have faith that they know what they're doing.

Oreo

growstuff

Anniebach

I only watched a few seconds of the uTube link

In that case I suggest you watch and read more, in order to find out what actually happened in Amsterdam, so that you can give well-informed comments.

But your own comments are not well informed as you ignore the fact that the ‘Jew Hunt’ as the pro Palestinian cohort called it on SM was organised in advance.They knew the Israeli football fans were coming and they decided to be violent.

My comments are very well informed.

Oreo

growstuff

Anniebach

I only watched a few seconds of the uTube link

In that case I suggest you watch and read more, in order to find out what actually happened in Amsterdam, so that you can give well-informed comments.

But your own comments are not well informed as you ignore the fact that the ‘Jew Hunt’ as the pro Palestinian cohort called it on SM was organised in advance.They knew the Israeli football fans were coming and they decided to be violent.

I assume you have some evidence of that. If the Maccabi fans also knew, they were idiots to provoke them - analysis of the timeline shows that they were the first to provoke the violence. They have form for it. Presumably they knew what would happen, so why did they do it? Maybe so that they could be portrayed as victims. The truth is that they are at least as much to blame as the pro-Palestinians in Amsterdam.

Moreover, there is evidence that that the Maccabi fans were hoping for some kind of punch up in Istanbul, which is why Turkish authorities refused to host the Besiktas versus Maccabi match, so it has been moved to neutral Hungary. Even Hungary has decided not to welcome Maccabi fans, so the match will be played behind closed doors.

Indeed, Oreo.
BBC reports this evening that Dutch police have now made five more arrests in Amsterdam over the violence.
These are all men from the Netherlands and aged between 18 and 37. Obviously analysis of the attacks is still ongoing.

growstuff

Anniebach

I only watched a few seconds of the uTube link

In that case I suggest you watch and read more, in order to find out what actually happened in Amsterdam, so that you can give well-informed comments.

But your own comments are not well informed as you ignore the fact that the ‘Jew Hunt’ as the pro Palestinian cohort called it on SM was organised in advance.They knew the Israeli football fans were coming and they decided to be violent.