Should Justin Welby resign?

Allira
Making a generalisation that traumatic wartime experiences caused parents to hit their children is wrong.

Yes, it’s the generalisation that’s wrong. You might know some for whom that’s true. Equally you might know some, for whom it’s not true.
E.g. like my father who suffered PTSD due to being on a ship that was torpedoed during WW2, but didn’t abuse his children. It would be wrong to draw the general conclusion that no sailor who was torpedoed ever abused their children.

Mollygo

Allira
Making a generalisation that traumatic wartime experiences caused parents to hit their children is wrong.

Yes, it’s the generalisation that’s wrong. You might know some for whom that’s true. Equally you might know some, for whom it’s not true.
E.g. like my father who suffered PTSD due to being on a ship that was torpedoed during WW2, but didn’t abuse his children. It would be wrong to draw the general conclusion that no sailor who was torpedoed ever abused their children.

In fact, having dreadful wartime experiences could have the effect that parents were determined their children should not suffer and were even more protective of them.

Mollygo -
I'm
not sure when attitudes really changed .
In the mid nineties my son came home from school -upset because a Chinese girl in his class had been beaten by her parents for getting a B and not an A for her work .
I knew her parents socially and found them very pleasant .
The girl was quite open as to why she'd been punished and seemed to accept it .
I wonder if she's a mother and does exactly the same now .

Anecdotal evidence about one Chinese girl does not mean that all children were beaten!

Actually , Allira -
I may base my opinion on personal experience , but not in regard to one girl .
My son went to school where there were about 50 percent ethnic Chinese in each class .

In the late eighties, early nineties, when I was teaching in Liverpool, some of the many ethnic minority parents never attended parents evenings for their children; the fathers didn’t attend for their daughters, because girls weren’t important and the mothers didn’t because, (according to the mothers who did come), they weren’t allowed and would have been in trouble if they’d tried.
But it was only some and who knows what the trouble might have involved.
I can make all sorts of assumptions, but it was still only some so I couldn’t say that all ethnic minority women were more likely to be at risk on the basis of what I knew.

Allira

Mollygo

Allira
Making a generalisation that traumatic wartime experiences caused parents to hit their children is wrong.

Yes, it’s the generalisation that’s wrong. You might know some for whom that’s true. Equally you might know some, for whom it’s not true.
E.g. like my father who suffered PTSD due to being on a ship that was torpedoed during WW2, but didn’t abuse his children. It would be wrong to draw the general conclusion that no sailor who was torpedoed ever abused their children.

In fact, having dreadful wartime experiences could have the effect that parents were determined their children should not suffer and were even more protective of them.

I'm on a former pupils group on Facebook for one of my schools, and the school had a teacher who was a prisoner of the Japanese. He had retired before I started, but ex pupils said he never liked to talk about it( probably wanted to blot out the memory of what happened) and was one of the more placid teachers and committed to his job.

Wyllow3

A good move, instead of looking at other "High or Mighty" people in the church, would be to choose well respected ordinary vicar(s).

Definitely, and there must be some very good ones who are outraged about the abuse, even if they are unable to say so publically.
There should be a purge of these dirty old men and the men/women who are guilty by association and by turning a blind eye.

These days I don't think anyone is interested in or impressed by "high and mighty" people. Qualities like purity, kindness, compassion and empathy would all be a good start.

I think that's too sweeping a statement, on page 1 we saw Bishop of Newcastle Helen-Ann Hartley call for resignation for example, there are 108 bishops many uninvolved.
I suggested an ordinary vicar as a gesture of humility not to condemn all who have status.

I'm not condemning them just because of status, but potentially any of them with status who knew and have carried on regardless are a big disappointment. I think many of the clergy in the diocese John Smyth went to church probably knew.

An ordinary vicar would be a great gesture of humility and perhaps that it what is needed.

Trauma Bonding

Stockholm syndrome,

Those are another thing that can happen in abusive relationships that can prevent someone leaving.

The Hampshire and other police forces are now saying they were not sufficiently rigorous in pursuing the allegations around Smyth at the time. All forces were snowed under because Jimmy Saville’s crimes had come to light around that time.
No excuse, I know, but it puts a slightly different light on those clergy who understood that the abuse had been reported and that the police would act on the allegations.

It does put a very different light on those clergy who believed they had done the right thing in reporting Smyth and his activities.

However, it does not change anything in the light of those who sought to hide Smyth's "activities" by sending him to Africa, or enabling him to be sent there and to be funded as a mission. Those two differences remain.

I agree.

00opsidia

Trauma Bonding

Stockholm syndrome,

Those are another thing that can happen in abusive relationships that can prevent someone leaving.

But these are responses to threats from outside. Abusive relationships rarely have an outside body to gang up against.

Cabbie21

The Hampshire and other police forces are now saying they were not sufficiently rigorous in pursuing the allegations around Smyth at the time. All forces were snowed under because Jimmy Saville’s crimes had come to light around that time.
No excuse, I know, but it puts a slightly different light on those clergy who understood that the abuse had been reported and that the police would act on the allegations.

I don't see it alters anything. The church had covered up 30 years of abuse, it could as worked as successfully in ensuring the crimes were reported correctly and investigated. The police were incompetent, 'too busy' doesn't excuse them.

So Welby surrounded by Bishops makes a speech in the House of lords shouldn't the lord title be taken from him and someone else be on his place Shouldn't the lords be decent people Apparently he made light of stepping down and showed concern for his Secretary being busy Has he not understood his role in letting abuse continue and considered the ruined lifes of the abused victims His arrogance is unbelievable Why are there so many bishops in the house of lords they are likely unable to relate to. The average person with their sheltered and ridiculously overpaid roles

Old frill above they thought the police were dealing with it Shouldn't the church have been sickened by it all and doing all they could to help the victims alongside checking the police were sufficient lying involved

Above should say sufficiently involved

Why do the bishops in the house of lords wear their robes and dog collars are they seeing the uniform as proof of their value or something their ordinary people and some were smiling when the archbishop made his speech in the lords

00opsidia

Trauma Bonding

Stockholm syndrome,

Those are another thing that can happen in abusive relationships that can prevent someone leaving.

That may make a difference.

But not prevent.

I do not have much direct experience.

But if you are saying prevent, then that would mean someone has lost all control.

There's a thread running about Welby's Speech in the HoLs

www.gransnet.com/forums/ask_a_gran/1343147-Farewell-and-good-riddance

TakeThat7

So Welby surrounded by Bishops makes a speech in the House of lords shouldn't the lord title be taken from him and someone else be on his place Shouldn't the lords be decent people Apparently he made light of stepping down and showed concern for his Secretary being busy Has he not understood his role in letting abuse continue and considered the ruined lifes of the abused victims His arrogance is unbelievable Why are there so many bishops in the house of lords they are likely unable to relate to. The average person with their sheltered and ridiculously overpaid roles

There is a new thread about Welby's Speech in The HoLs.

www.gransnet.com/forums/ask_a_gran/1343147-Farewell-and-good-riddance