Should Justin Welby resign?

MissAdventure

That he was a sadistic seual pervert, you mean?

Smyth got sexual pleasure from physically abusing young boys.

Sexual...

That he was a sadistic seual pervert, you mean?

Aveline

It's a polite way of talking about something ghastly

Perhaps we shouldn't use polite terms.
Say it as it is.

Has everyone seen the interview of Smyth's son?

There is something particularly horrific about the use of faith and ritual in abusing children.

It's a polite way of talking about something ghastly

@Welbeck She might've been taken there too.

@Monica. I agree that it could happen in any kind of group, although in this instance Smyth used bible verses out of context to further his cause. For this reason Smyth's abuse falls under Spiritual Abuse as well as Physical Abuse, Emotional abuse and Sexual abuse.

@Esmay, that's sad and shocking. I think abuse affects people differently because genetics come into play as well. Some people who are abused are the kindest souls because they have such empathy of others and never want someone else to feel that way.

@Iam64 I have no idea in general, but Smyth was sexually abused and if he accidentally had some pleasure during the abuse, I believe that's how paraphilias start. Childhood sexual abuse is considered a leading cause of pedophilia, among other paraphilias and resultant paraphilic disorders.

But sexual abuse doesn't always cause people to become abusers or have paraphilias. There must be other factors that cause or prevent it.

@Aveline I hadn't heard of that expression before. It seems a very polite way of saying it.

I've seen this referred to as a liking for 'green apples'. 😑

Iam64

I appreciate MOnica’s comments here. It raise the question again. Why do so many adults, mostly men, find children sexually attractive

I do not know and cannot understand why - and so often it is boys that are particularly at risk.

I have never even seen the subject discussed and a google search provided very little relevant literature.

I look back on my childhood and remember two boys from very different backgrounds :

One lived near me and how his vile mother used to thrash him with a cane on his bare buttocks . He was only six .
He's survived , married has a family and a relatively good job - but one thing that I recall about him -
By his teens he was into sexually dominating women .
I hope that his wife is OK .

The other boy had very wealthy parents and I went to school with him .
He was brilliant ,
anti social and odd .
He was so gentle and sweet and his father used to cane him for minor misdemeanours .
Watching White Mischief the other day put me in mind of this brutal man , who delighted in abusing his wife and killing pets .

Now he's 70 , is strange and introverted and has never had a relationship with a man nor a woman .
I know another man , who was beaten weekly at school and then by his father at home .
His wife has endured years of abuse from him .
These punishments were acceptable then .
No one seemed to realise the damage that they were doing .

I appreciate MOnica’s comments here. It raise the question again. Why do so many adults, mostly men, find children sexually attractive

welbeck

Spare the rod and
Spoil the child

An extreme version of this attitude was probably espoused by Smyth and accepted by his wife.
This abuse took place in a religious
context.
That was it's rationale and how the young men and boys were

That saying (spare the rod and spoil the child) is not biblical, it has its origins in a 17th century poem by Samuel Butler.

There are a couple of references in the old testament to similar practices, but only in the sense that a child should be disciplined if misbehaving. But certainly the avocation to beat children much and often as implied in the quote is neither Christion nor biblical.

The problem with all religions, is that however good the principles it espouses, they are practised and organised by ordinary humanbeings, with all the vices, virtues that go with humanity and while some people are inspired to great heights of goodness and self sacrifice by their religious beliefs, there will always be those who use the religion to pursue their own aims. hence the problems with child and sex abuse in every religion, cult and any closed philosophical group.

It does not even have to be a group with religious beliefs. Many leaders of 'New Age' and extreme political groups (like the Socialist Workers party) have been found to have used the position their leadership in groups with intense (political) beliefs gave them to sexually abuse members and/or their children.

John Smythe was a sexual pervert with no biblical or religious backing for anything he said or did. He simply recognised vulnerable people when he met them and exploited them for his own evil ends.

Manipulated to go into that shed.
Of course his wife knew.

Spare the rod and
Spoil the child



An extreme version of this attitude was probably espoused by Smyth and accepted by his wife.
This abuse took place in a religious
context.
That was it's rationale and how the young men and boys were

Of course abused kids love their parents. Its all they know.
Its not like there is anyone intervening or explaining what abuse is, unless the other parent realises the horrible truth.

As Madalene has said, leaving is not always enough. The first five years of child development are crucial to their health, well-being, and the overall trajectory of their lives. In removing the kids from the other parent you would attract critcism from people who didnt want to understand and the kids would be damaged from the split.

The only answer is to never get involved with an abuser (but those who had abusive parents themselves are weaker to be drawn in and find it hard to learn boundaries if they have never had them)

If involved with an abuser, I still think its best to leave and do your best to give the kids a life full of peace and love. I wish the Smyth kids all the best.

I didn’t hear the interview with Smyth’s son but a transcript is available on Channel 4’s website.

It seems to me that PJ Smyth believed he was being justly disciplined by his father when he was a child. I am not sure he knows what to think about his mother, but the implication seems that she was completely under her husband’s control and like PJ, she was not in a position to break free or even to realise that this was abuse.

madalene

My daughter walked away from an abusive marriage but it took years, even though she knew she was being abused. It’s not easy, and it damages everyone in the family as they all try to pick up the pieces, and in some way repair the damage. Which of course, can never be done.

True.

My daughter walked away from an abusive marriage but it took years, even though she knew she was being abused. It’s not easy, and it damages everyone in the family as they all try to pick up the pieces, and in some way repair the damage. Which of course, can never be done.

fancythat

00opsidia

I am not sure anyone CAN understand that unless they have chosen to walk away from an abusive situation.

Accusing me of losing my mind or saying I'm not being bothered about abuse proves you either did not read what I wrote properly or cannot concieve what I wrote. Either way I feel sorry for your lack of comprehension.

Maybe i did not read what you have wrote properly.

Which post please?

But no, I dont conceive either.

I wish I did.

So please explain further. If you want to.

fancythat Tue 19-Nov-24 09:59:59

I don't feel I need to explain anything.

Exactly Allira. Hindley blamed Brady but played a key role.

00opsidia

I am not sure anyone CAN understand that unless they have chosen to walk away from an abusive situation.

Accusing me of losing my mind or saying I'm not being bothered about abuse proves you either did not read what I wrote properly or cannot concieve what I wrote. Either way I feel sorry for your lack of comprehension.

Maybe i did not read what you have wrote properly.

Which post please?

But no, I dont conceive either.

I wish I did.

So please explain further. If you want to.

I accept that women can be cowed and subdued by men using their physical, financial and mental power to coerce them to stay in a relationship, but to be honest, I cannot comprehend how these women can keep loving their abuser.

I fully admit that my own experience is limited. I started going out with someone I had known some time socially. A few dates in, I began to get an instinct that he was someone who could be controlling, and I immediately cooled down and exited any relationship. This was back in the 1960s when little was known aabout coercive relationships, but I am not a person who does as they are told, by anyone, not even if they try to coerrce me.

What I do remember is that when a year or more later I heard he was engaged to a French woman whose parents lived in the south of France, my immediate gut reaction was that I hoped she had a good friendship group in the UK to support her, if things went badly wrong, as he had chosen a wife whose family were too far away to know what might be happening to her.

Iam64

MOnica, I agree with your post. We need to understand coercive control, of course but shouldn’t forget some women are complicit in the awful abuse their children are subjected to by their father/father figure.
I’ve been following the Sara Sharrif trial - it’s harrowing with all 3 adults being tried for murder or allowing the death of the child

Rose West.

I am not sure anyone CAN understand that unless they have chosen to walk away from an abusive situation.

Accusing me of losing my mind or saying I'm not being bothered about abuse proves you either did not read what I wrote properly or cannot concieve what I wrote. Either way I feel sorry for your lack of comprehension.