Assisted dying bill

Galaxy 👍

Has any country introduced this type of law and it hasn't changed over time with the safeguards being weakened.

theworriedwell

@Fleurpepper Id just read a post saying strongly held opinions don't change. They do.

I am sorry, the worriedwell, I just do not understand your post.

If anyone changes their mind, right up to the last minute, they would be free to do so.

keepingquiet

I find the whole thing terrifying.

I know if my MP votes in favour I will never vote for her again.

I sincerely hope mine does! What I find more terrifying is the prospect of suffering the same kind of long, lingering death as my mother and MiL. It should be a question of my body, my choice.

When someone's god decides ? Not sure what that means. I don't want secular values imposed upon me or fellow muslims either; unless the perpetrators are islamophobic or anti-semitic. In this debate I would also allow "people of knowledge" like the BMA, RCN unlike MP's who are often a little short of a full shilling.

Fleurpepper someone said strongly held views don't change. They do. I gave an example and you've explained that is catered for as they can change their mind. I can't see what is complicated about that.

To put it another way do you agree that the person who said people don't change their mind was wrong?

oh I see. Yes, wrong, some people do change their mind. And this is respected.

Kalm, I said someone's God, because attitudes are different depending on religion, and even within religions. No disrespect there at all. I have many beloved members of my family who are Muslims, and I know they would feel very differently to me/us. And we all respect each other.

No-one wants to impose secular values on you. And neither should others impose religious values (of whichever denomination) on others who are not religious. Which is why the current bill would allow individuals to make a clear choice, aligned to their own values and moral framework, religious or not. Nothing but nothing, would be imposed on anyone, just a choice for those who wish it.

Privileged who use the word 'choice' like 'confetti'? That is so wrong. What is massively privileged, is the choice for a few, with sufficient money, to spend £12 to 15000 to travel to Switzerland and avail themselves of that choice. Now that is unfair, and hugely privileged, for the few who can afford it. Fair?

It’s about time in fact way overdue.

Too many situations where pain cannot be controlled. I recently had my beloved dog put to sleep; I loved him too much to let him suffer.

It’s about choice over our own bodies.

With respect I am saying the "choice" should not be available to any Muslim. The Muslim has the "rooh" in the soul, that is what makes the inanimate molecules come alive during conception. Allah decides the entry and exit point of the soul.
After death the departed soul enters a state of limbo known as barzakh until the day of reckoning. Secularists or humanists believe life ends at the grave, a Muslim doesn't. The Quran clearly says "....He gives life and causes death, and to Him you shall be brought back. (10:56)"

Kalm

With respect I am saying the "choice" should not be available to any Muslim. The Muslim has the "rooh" in the soul, that is what makes the inanimate molecules come alive during conception. Allah decides the entry and exit point of the soul.
After death the departed soul enters a state of limbo known as barzakh until the day of reckoning. Secularists or humanists believe life ends at the grave, a Muslim doesn't. The Quran clearly says "....He gives life and causes death, and to Him you shall be brought back. (10:56)"

With respect you do what you want to do or what your religion dictates; but those of us who have free will want to exercise that choice.

MissAdventure

So if the current situation is very far from ideal, is it the right time to be introducing something as far reaching as assisted dying, or whatever it will be called?

Obviously choices made by people who are suffering pain, indifference, confusion about who to turn to, lack of, or poor care aren't going to be carefully thought out and considered, and done for the right reasons.

Obviously choices made by people who are suffering pain, indifference, confusion about who to turn to, lack of, or poor care aren't going to be carefully thought out and considered, and done for the right reasons.

Good point MissAdventure.

If this bill were being considered against a backdrop of well-integrated and effective hospice / palliative care, available to all and any who needed it, you could say people would be making choices in a totally different environment.

But, as the fairly recent Marie Curie report on end-of-life care indicates, this isn't the case.

It provides clear evidence that too many people are unable to access the joined-up care and support they and their unpaid carers need at the end of life. Community support for palliative care is inadequate, with GP and District Nursing services stretched beyond capacity.

There are no two ways about it: care for dying people is in crisis.

Not good is it?

In fact, the whole care-system - community care, nursing-home care is a mess. A mess that successive governments have simply kicked into the long grass whilst making promises to fix it.

Quokka

Kalm

With respect I am saying the "choice" should not be available to any Muslim. The Muslim has the "rooh" in the soul, that is what makes the inanimate molecules come alive during conception. Allah decides the entry and exit point of the soul.
After death the departed soul enters a state of limbo known as barzakh until the day of reckoning. Secularists or humanists believe life ends at the grave, a Muslim doesn't. The Quran clearly says "....He gives life and causes death, and to Him you shall be brought back. (10:56)"

With respect you do what you want to do or what your religion dictates; but those of us who have free will want to exercise that choice.

I don't think any such bill could, realistically, legally exclude Muslims.

Nor should it.

How a Muslim interprets the Quran is his or her business. It has been interpreted in various ways - throughout history.

Choice is a fallacy, Muslims might want the choice for 4 wives....allowable in Islam....and the "white right" likely to be apoplectic at the mere suggestion. The choice also exists to drink and smoke ourselves to death. The Quran also says to have saved one life is to have saved humanity. I don't believe people understand choice. Margaret Thatcher's election made me understand that fact. More recently Brexit and Trump - All under the illusion of choice. Knowing many people in the health professions, one thing is clear people are not rational. Even educated families can be dysfunctional
Even getting people to take regular medication outside of a hospital setting is difficult. Elderly people are treated abominably anyway and government safeguards don't work. Getting a doctor out for my parents years ago was a nightmare, only until the end did visits take place. That was also because muslims are not allowed a post mortem.

Fleurpepper

Miss A, so he would not ahve asked for assisted dying and would not have drunk the lethal potion- his choice.

People assumed, his family included, that he was not capable of making a choice, and as he hade made blatantly clear before in earlier discussions what he would have chosen, he was very nearly withdrawn from life preserving assistance.

Maybe not the case now, with the way things have advanced, and really a quite different situation, but it struck me how very wrong people could be, how close he was to the wrong decision being made, with the very best of intentions.

I think this would be such a comfort to those who have a terminal condition. The knowledge that should things get too bad you can choose to end it.

Not forgetting that all this man could move was his eyes,
Does that mean he would be denied the choice?
He was tube fed, so unable to refuse to drink, would someone put the meds into his tube?

As I say, I'm on the fence about it, just pointing out that it rarely a black or white decision.
So many grey areas to account for.

Galaxy

If people impose their beliefs that assisted dying is ok, then those beliefs will negatively impact the most vulnerable in society.
I dont believe the reassurances. They put inappropriate DNR s on people with learning disabilities during covid.

I don’t think I trust any reassurances either.

MissAdventure

Not forgetting that all this man could move was his eyes,
Does that mean he would be denied the choice?
He was tube fed, so unable to refuse to drink, would someone put the meds into his tube?

As I say, I'm on the fence about it, just pointing out that it rarely a black or white decision.
So many grey areas to account for.

As I say, I'm on the fence about it, just pointing out that it rarely a black or white decision.
So many grey areas to account for.

Again, I agree with you.

What worries me is that this bill is being considered at a time of national economic crisis - you know, all those painful and difficult choices, and the black hole the government has been banging on about, and one of the first moves was to remove the WFA from all but the poorest pensioners. Some are looking around for people to blame - and the intergenerational 'warfare' is an now an established method of stoking the divide between the working population and the elderly. State pensions devour the largest part of the welfare bill. And there are fears being articulated from some quarters that we will see the hospital 'bed-blocking' by old people - due of course, to the chaotic state of the care system.

I's just an awful economic environment in which to allay the fears of those who feel that old and very sick people might not be protected by the suggested safeguards that would be put in place.

I don't feel I have the right to decide that another person should suffer a long, lingering and painful end though because of my feelings about the matter.

... but, I'm still on the fence, like you.

Kalm

With respect I am saying the "choice" should not be available to any Muslim. The Muslim has the "rooh" in the soul, that is what makes the inanimate molecules come alive during conception. Allah decides the entry and exit point of the soul.
After death the departed soul enters a state of limbo known as barzakh until the day of reckoning. Secularists or humanists believe life ends at the grave, a Muslim doesn't. The Quran clearly says "....He gives life and causes death, and to Him you shall be brought back. (10:56)"

I'm struggling to get my head round that.

If someone is of the Muslim religion and that forbids it = they personally make the choice of:

a. Whether to stay a Muslim and accept that viewpoint of them not having any personal choice
or
b. Leave the Muslim religion if need be if that's the only acceptable way for them to make their own personal decision for themselves.

Obviously in our society as a whole we must have that choice and if someone decides (for whatever reason) not to make that choice for themselves = that is entirely up to them and they either:
- choose not to choose and accept what they've been told
or
- make their own choice

It is their life = their decision (even if that decision is not to make a decision themselves).

Our own personal decisions might well differ from those of a group we are in. I know that I've been in that position myself - as in many years back now I was in an evangelical Christian church and hadn't really clicked that women were not being regarded as equal. That was until the day where the man that was giving the Sunday morning sermon said "Anyone can give this sermon - unless they're a woman" or words to that effect. I clicked how that church thought at that point and instantly got up and literally walked right out in front of a chapel full of people - followed by walking into a liberal Christian church that has known women are equal since it was founded in the 17th century. Right from Day 1 there was simply no question of women obviously being equal (more equal than they are still to this day in secular society).

Even not making a choice and believing one doesn't have a choice = a choice of itself.

Kalm

Choice is a fallacy, Muslims might want the choice for 4 wives....allowable in Islam....and the "white right" likely to be apoplectic at the mere suggestion. The choice also exists to drink and smoke ourselves to death. The Quran also says to have saved one life is to have saved humanity. I don't believe people understand choice. Margaret Thatcher's election made me understand that fact. More recently Brexit and Trump - All under the illusion of choice. Knowing many people in the health professions, one thing is clear people are not rational. Even educated families can be dysfunctional
Even getting people to take regular medication outside of a hospital setting is difficult. Elderly people are treated abominably anyway and government safeguards don't work. Getting a doctor out for my parents years ago was a nightmare, only until the end did visits take place. That was also because muslims are not allowed a post mortem.

Kalm- you have expressed my feelings exactly here.

I will also add that reading some of these posts makes me feel we certainly shouldn't be supporting this bill.

I am glad it is down to the MPs moral choices, whether or not they are swayed by letters either way.

It isn't a perfect system but we don't live in a perfect world, despite people thinking that you can somehow make death a kind of 'perfect' experience by handing them a pill.

I think I’m on the fence too MissA and Dickens.
My fear is that this will be passed into law, with many assurances and safeguards, but these will in time become watered down and misinterpreted.

For me, it makes sense to exercise extreme caution given the failings (just the ones that come to light) in policies,procedures,practices and laws around keeping the vulnerable safe.

Galaxy I dont believe the reassurances. They put inappropriate DNR s on people with learning disabilities during covid.

That's something I will never forgive them for. My grandson would have been in that situation.

In the past (I hope it is firmly 'in the past' ) people born with Down syndrome were denied heart surgery because they were Down's? Doctors are not immune from making value judgements on lives.

I am also on the fence, it’s an extremely uncomfortable position to be in.

If I had more faith in the safety procedures and protocols I maybe could be in favour of assisted death, unfortunately these bills start out in good faith (Canada I am looking at you) but take a nasty turn.

I’ve witnessed a few die a lingering death due to a stroke or cancer and it’s not for me, my father had the best end of life, good health at 85, he called me at 7am his sister called in a 8.30 he had a heart attack and gone.

That’s how I want to go, if I can’t enjoy life, they can switch me off any time. I want that choice.