Assisted dying bill

B9exchange

There are observations you can do, observing heart rate, breathing patterns etc.

What's the point of prolonging death is they're so bad they are unconscious and will never wake, if they are lucky?

I have been privileged to be with many people including children at the end of their lives , as a nurse , I feel strongly that this should only be a decision reached by the patient, and no one else , No one should die in agony but many do , Doctors are terrified of litigiousness families, and are therefore not prepared to give really effective pain relief , even more frightening is the fact that few medical practitioners are aufait with end of life care , . There are definitely not enough hospice places , , So I definitely want to be able to choose my end Thankyou and not have my family prosecuted , Listen to all the above gransnetters who’ve been there with their loved ones

theworriedwell

Has any country introduced this type of law and it hasn't changed over time with the safeguards being weakened.

Yes Oregon has, not been extended or amended since 1997. Our law is being based on this one.

MissAdventure

As far as I know, an incidental shortening of life due to painkillers isn't illegal.
I may be wrong though, because I usually am lately.

I am afraid you are wrong. It only takes one person to report a possible overdose and all hell breaks loose. And there is always that person. So doctors are unable to exercise the compassion for suffering that many of them would want to. The doctor who was in charge of prescribing my mums morphine was also more concerned about his soul than her suffering, he was a 'Christian'. So she was left to moan and scream in pain, suspended above her bed in a mesh contraption that was supposed to spread the pressure as she had cancer in her whole back and pelvis by then. And it was intractable pain. I have heard of palliative care severing the spinal chord in cases like this in the past few years. I personally would prefer to just cut the whole process short and depart a bit earlier. And reading the above I am so glad I am not a Muslim!

So if a child is at end of life and suffering can their parents make that choice since they make choices for the child on everything else? If no, then can the child make the choice themselves? If no, then this would not be fair to all citizens, only elderly.

I fervently hope the bill is passed. I haven't read the 47 pages and I doubt anybody on here has. There may be things in it that need tweaking but imo it's the first step in a route to assist terminally ill people and their families IF they wish to take advantage of it.

We have Medical Assistance In Dying [MAID] in Canada. It is extremely well regulated and a huge relief & blessing for many who are terminally ill.

Very many of us are now advocating for advanced consent. This is especially close to the hearts of those facing mental decline due to dementia/Alzheimer's since with MAID final consent much be given immediately before the procedure. Many do not relish the idea of languishing in a care bed until their bodies finally give out..... the ultimate indignity.

If you don't want assistance in dying.... fine, but please don't stop those who do want it. [flower]

By the way.... I have heard some say that they want to die a 'natural death'. If they are having life saving surgeries or taking medications to prolong their lives, how is that natural~~

Just a thought, and an absolutely horrific one at that. All those in favour of this bill whereby an adult in such pain or distress could opt to end their life, any thoughts on why children and adolescents should have to suffer in a way you don't want for adults? And what about those with advanced dementia who don't have capacity, are you OK with their suffering until death?
This bill worries me. If passed the criteria will get diluted, it's inevitable. The abortion act was very stringent at first, it's a whole lot less so now.

My daughter's pain was well managed, and when there was an upset with staff tuning down her oxygen, with nurses saying "she wasn't allowed" to turn it back up, her oncologist shrugged and said he was fine with her having what she needed.

She was also riddled with cancer.

catd

I have campaigned for this Bill for seven years and will be outside the HofP on 29th with my placard. I agree on safeguards but this Bill does not go far enough. It's about an individuals right to choose. If you want to continue living it's your choice. In an ideal world there would be brilliant palliative care but currently there isn't. I will hasten my death as soon as I feel my quality of life has gone. It is my right to choose

I think this is what frightens me.

I may seem insensitive with my words to some, but trust me I worked with the sick and dying for more than twenty years. I have also had several of my relatives die, sometimes at a very young age.

To be honest I'm rather tired of being labelled as cruel and insensitive because I see a different side to these arguments- that I seem to support something that is cruel and undignified and therefore I must be accused, like so many hard working carers and medical professionals, that if you refuse to 'kill' someone you are a horrible nasty person and of course, the religious ones are the worst.

It worries me that I may have to fight for my own life at some point in the future.

But again, this isn't really about me- or you (although there are people who would rather die than concede it isn't all about 'them and their choice')

It is about what sort of society we want to be- one which cares for its most vulnerable, or one that doesn't.

MissAdventure

My daughter's pain was well managed, and when there was an upset with staff tuning down her oxygen, with nurses saying "she wasn't allowed" to turn it back up, her oncologist shrugged and said he was fine with her having what she needed.

She was also riddled with cancer.

You and she were lucky with where the cancer was and the medical care. My mum was in a hospice with a doctor who was a palliative care doctor. In Southend. It was a hellish experience for her and for us who loved her to watch without being able o help. I had PTSD for a long time afterwards with flash backs and depression. I never want to go through this myself or have my daughters traumatised the way I was. Sometimes there is not enough legal morphine to do the job.

Rosie51

Just a thought, and an absolutely horrific one at that. All those in favour of this bill whereby an adult in such pain or distress could opt to end their life, any thoughts on why children and adolescents should have to suffer in a way you don't want for adults? And what about those with advanced dementia who don't have capacity, are you OK with their suffering until death?
This bill worries me. If passed the criteria will get diluted, it's inevitable. The abortion act was very stringent at first, it's a whole lot less so now.

So Rosie are you aware that his bill is based on the one used by Oregon, which was passed in 1997 and has remained in the original scope since then?

My daughter was in Southend hospital, with cancer in her brain, skull, spine, pelvis, arms, legs
, ovaries, lungs.

For the first time then, she was treated well, and listened to.

Plus she was determined by then that she would be made comfortable, having suffered awfully in the years before.

Respectfully if you have not seen the limits of palliative care you should refrain from opining

IOMGran Respectfully if you had read my post in its entirety you would have see that I said I can only speak from a point of personal experience

My experiences are just as valid as any others on this forum, I wouldn’t dream of telling anyone how to opine

MissAdventure (((hugs))) 🌸

GrannyGravy13

^Respectfully if you have not seen the limits of palliative care you should refrain from opining^

IOMGran Respectfully if you had read my post in its entirety you would have see that I said I can only speak from a point of personal experience

My experiences are just as valid as any others on this forum, I wouldn’t dream of telling anyone how to opine

Maybe reading other people's experiences might make you reflect that you were lucky.

IOMGran

Rosie51

Just a thought, and an absolutely horrific one at that. All those in favour of this bill whereby an adult in such pain or distress could opt to end their life, any thoughts on why children and adolescents should have to suffer in a way you don't want for adults? And what about those with advanced dementia who don't have capacity, are you OK with their suffering until death?
This bill worries me. If passed the criteria will get diluted, it's inevitable. The abortion act was very stringent at first, it's a whole lot less so now.

So Rosie are you aware that his bill is based on the one used by Oregon, which was passed in 1997 and has remained in the original scope since then?

Just because the Oregon one has never changed that is no guarantee this one wouldn't is it? It would be very naive to think that the one would absolutely determine the other.

What do you say to the rest of my post about children, adolescents and those without capacity?

I strongly hope this bill is passed. I hope too that more time and money will be spent on hospices and palliative care. I understand the concerns of those who oppose it but it seems unfair that their opposition to assisted dying rules it out for everyone. There should be choice on both sides of the argument.
A bad death is not only intolerable for the patient but also for their families who witness it. The harrowing memories it leaves make the process of grieving slower and more difficult.

IOMGran sitting with my Granny until she died in hospital, sitting with both of my parents in their Hospice rooms whilst they took their last breath, sitting with my step-father who had vascular dementia whilst he died, yep I must be really lucky.

I will not engage with you in this thread anymore.

MissAdventure

My daughter was in Southend hospital, with cancer in her brain, skull, spine, pelvis, arms, legs
, ovaries, lungs.

For the first time then, she was treated well, and listened to.

Plus she was determined by then that she would be made comfortable, having suffered awfully in the years before.

My mother had cancers everywhere but nowhere that would have done her the kindness of immediate death. It was in her brains and she was fitting and I think she had tumours in her liver as well. Quite frankly there was little point in finding them all at that point. She bas blind by then, had lost all sense of taste and smell and had zero QOL. All this started as breast cancer and she was clear for 6 years and then it came back with a vengeance. But again, the morphine that was legally allowed was insufficient to control the pain. She had become very resistant to it, her kidneys just excreted it. I reckon her urine could have killed if drunk. I would not wish this on anyone.

I am very glad your daughter did not have this experience. Cancer sucks.

GrannyGravy13

IOMGran sitting with my Granny until she died in hospital, sitting with both of my parents in their Hospice rooms whilst they took their last breath, sitting with my step-father who had vascular dementia whilst he died, yep I must be really lucky.

I will not engage with you in this thread anymore.

You were luckier than me and mine. No loss to lose your opinion.

My daughter's was metastatic breast cancer, too. IOMGran
Can't say she or I felt particularly lucky.

She had battled for ten years before that point.

MissAdventure

As far as I know, an incidental shortening of life due to painkillers isn't illegal.
I may be wrong though, because I usually am lately.

I wondered about that, too.

If the amount of opiate drug required to alleviate unmanageable pain equals the amount that will accidentally shorten the life of the patient - I mean, does a consultant / doctor actually know to the nth degree the exact ML or MG? - then is he or she 'assisting' dying, or trying to relieve pain?

As you said earlier, there are grey areas.

I wonder how many people suffering hours /days of unremitting pain would take the risk, if told that an additional 5ml (or whatever) of an opiate might hasten their death?

I can answer that for me, but not for others - and therein lies one of the problems.

If it meant the shortening of a life of absolute torture, unrelenting pain, and hopelessness, then it seems an easy choice.

If it meant longer spent feeling weak, sleepy, but able to cope, then I'm guessing some would choose that, at least for a time.

Fleurpepper
No-one, but no-one, is talking about a Canada style option.

Yet.
And that is my concern. Once a law is in place it’s relatively easy to tweak parts of it.