‘Police treat classroom jibes as hate incidents’.

eazybee

Rather than calling in the police, an educational psychiatrist would be a more useful option, to speak to both families of the children involved. Difficult to arrange, and nearly always rejected.

Educational Psychologist?

If the child is demonstrating general behavioural problems then a referral would be the right way forward but for an incident like the one mentioned in the OP, if a one-off, surely it could be dealt with promptly by the school.
No need for police involvement either.

The added problem with EPs is that the school closures during covid have drastically added to their heavy workload.

eazybee

Rather than calling in the police, an educational psychiatrist would be a more useful option, to speak to both families of the children involved. Difficult to arrange, and nearly always rejected.

As ever, I think there is a problem with recruitment and funding of and for EPs - which has an impact on early intervention - when it is most effective.

Calling on the police does seem 'dramatic' but, as has been pointed out, if the child involved is from a home environment which is 'toxic' - which might even involve abuse, either mental or physical, it might ultimately be a good thing.

I know one can't generalise however when you read (and I don't mean in the tabloids) about teachers themselves being bullied - having chairs thrown at them, etc - by pupils, then it does make you wonder what sort of home environment they are living in.

I think good teachers know not to overreact where name calling is concerned. Especially at primary level, because not all bullying is intended to hurt or be deliberate.

For example, some young children may see their behaviour as teasing the other child, like in a game. It's not malicious and although unacceptable, it can be quickly corrected without coming down hard. Often just a kind, simple correction can be more effective than punishment. The important thing is to change that behaviour for the future.

However, the problem is that this sort of low level intimidation can have a wearing impact on the targeted child, a bit like a relentless dripping tap over a period of time. That's why it needs to be corrected as soon as the teacher realises it isn't just an inadvertent slip of the tongue. Of course that takes experience or sharp detection skills which not all teachers have at their finger tips.

Involving police at age 9 for name calling does sound disproportionate to the poor conduct.

Rather than calling in the police, an educational psychiatrist would be a more useful option, to speak to both families of the children involved. Difficult to arrange, and nearly always rejected.

theworriedwell

No excuses for bullying I was just illustrating that involving the police can be a positive for a child in a toxic home although that isn't the primary reason for involving them.

I think I misunderstood you. I agree that involving the police could in the long term be a positive for a child from a toxic home background.

Dickens

growstuff

What do you think teachers are prevented from saying or doing?

I think schools are now having to deal with societal problems that would, once, have been dealt with by social services.

Investigating bullying is time consuming, it's not always easy to prove either. Teachers are either teaching or doing admin and they do not have the time that is required to deal with it.

If parents refuse to co-operate, there is little anyone can do.

Recently, (locally) a child was bullied at school - there had been other complaints of bullying by this particular child. After speaking to the Head, the teacher spoke to the bully and, during the conversation, accused him of bullying. Within a short space of time, the parents were at the school denying that their child was a bully, and demanding an apology from the teacher for the accusation, because they had "no proof". The 'outrage' then centred on the accusation, rather than the report and complaints of other children who had been bullied.

In cases such as that, schools need to stand firm. The child could have been excluded. Of course, the school would need to have acted professionally and watched its back at every stage. It's not unknown for outraged parents (and grandparents) to turn up at the school, so everybody needs to be prepared. The police need to be involved. If bullying parents discover they're not going to win, they'll think twice about being 'outraged' again. Bullies are usually cowards and back down if they meet their match. I disagree that there is little anyone can do, if parents refuse to co-operate.

No excuses for bullying I was just illustrating that involving the police can be a positive for a child in a toxic home although that isn't the primary reason for involving them.

growstuff

What do you think teachers are prevented from saying or doing?

I think schools are now having to deal with societal problems that would, once, have been dealt with by social services.

Investigating bullying is time consuming, it's not always easy to prove either. Teachers are either teaching or doing admin and they do not have the time that is required to deal with it.

If parents refuse to co-operate, there is little anyone can do.

Recently, (locally) a child was bullied at school - there had been other complaints of bullying by this particular child. After speaking to the Head, the teacher spoke to the bully and, during the conversation, accused him of bullying. Within a short space of time, the parents were at the school denying that their child was a bully, and demanding an apology from the teacher for the accusation, because they had "no proof". The 'outrage' then centred on the accusation, rather than the report and complaints of other children who had been bullied.

theworriedwell

Depends how toxic the home environment is. If we are using problems at home as an excuse those problems should be looked at. They might not be much in which case they aren't much of an excuse if they are extreme the child/bully needs protecting. Some kids end up dead as no one looks at what's going on in the home.

If the problems at home are really toxic, it might be necessary to involve social services.

Nevertheless, a toxic home environment is never an excuse to overlook bullying in schools. Pupils and teachers need to be told that bullying will never be tolerated within the school environment. Obviously, the school cannot control what goes on outside the school - in which case police involvement probably is justified. If a toxic home environment is used as an excuse, the school is giving out a very wrong message which sanctions bullying in certain circumstances.

What do you think teachers are prevented from saying or doing?

Dickens

growstuff

eazybee

Teaching is great.
It is the lack of sanctions that failed us.

Not just that, but the tick box mentality and lack of autonomy and flexibility to use methodology teachers know works.

Not just that, but the tick box mentality and lack of autonomy and flexibility to use methodology teachers know works.

Maybe that's one of the reasons why, so frequently, bullying appears to be something that can't be dealt with effectively?

If there is so much you are prevented from saying or doing, it does narrow down the options...

I don't think I really understand what you're implying. Teachers and schools aren't prevented from saying or doing anything to deal with bullying. I wasn't referring to behaviour management when I wrote about tick box mentality and lack of autonomy.

If a child (or a group of children) are bullying, there is nothing to stop a school from investigating and dealing with it as appropriate, even if that means (in the worst cases) exclusion from school. I suspect the real reason behaviour isn't always dealt with appropriately is lack of time during the school day for teachers to sit down and talk to children (and parents/carers) for hours to find out what has been happening.

growstuff

eazybee

Teaching is great.
It is the lack of sanctions that failed us.

Not just that, but the tick box mentality and lack of autonomy and flexibility to use methodology teachers know works.

Not just that, but the tick box mentality and lack of autonomy and flexibility to use methodology teachers know works.

Maybe that's one of the reasons why, so frequently, bullying appears to be something that can't be dealt with effectively?

If there is so much you are prevented from saying or doing, it does narrow down the options...

Depends how toxic the home environment is. If we are using problems at home as an excuse those problems should be looked at. They might not be much in which case they aren't much of an excuse if they are extreme the child/bully needs protecting. Some kids end up dead as no one looks at what's going on in the home.

Involving the police I agree with - children of this age will learn their lesson if a powerful adult tells them. & "retard" is a horrible jibe. I don't agree with worried well about taking the bully from their home though, massively traumatic for child & parents, & unlikely they'd be safer as a "looked after" child!!

If there is a hardman father or brother causing issues at home for the bully then involving the police is an even better idea. Hopefully the issue will be addressed or the bully removed to a safer environment.

eazybee

Teaching is great.
It is the lack of sanctions that failed us.

Not just that, but the tick box mentality and lack of autonomy and flexibility to use methodology teachers know works.

Teaching is great.
It is the lack of sanctions that failed us.

growstuff

Oreo

Am amazed that anyone wants to be a teacher now.

So am I.

Me, too.

Oreo

Am amazed that anyone wants to be a teacher now.

So am I.

I know there is the hard dad or brother image that some bullies are forced to be like, but others are people who enjoy hurting and humiliating people they don't like or consider different or weaker than them and will form a clique of friends with the same outlook. Some do become complete failures in life, I can think of two my age who were bullies who have become total failures as adults, but there are others who use their bullying nature and supposed popularity to advance in their careers.

theworriedwell

Ilovedogs22

theworriedwell

As one of mine was so badly bullied she wanted to die I don't have much sympathy for bullies. I hope the police put the fear of God in them.

Hear, hear theworriedwell, one of my boys was bullied constantly by a nasty little scrotum & the teachers/pastoral care lot did nothing! Anything that stops bullying in the bud must be implemented! Its heartbreaking to see the affects of bullying upon one's children & it causes so many long-lasting psychological problems for the poor, blameless victim.😔

I don't think people who haven't been affected realise about the long term effects. I try to remember it is ignorance rather than malice but I do hate all the apologising for the poor bullies.

I hope your son is doing OK.

theworriedwell

I don't think people who haven't been affected realise about the long term effects. I try to remember it is ignorance rather than malice but I do hate all the apologising for the poor bullies.

Hear, hear.

It's all very well to talk about it in abstract terms, but for the victims, it can be a daily torment. Children and adults have taken their own lives because of it.

Bullies come from all kinds of backgrounds, they need to be made to face-up to their own inadequacies / insecurities because I believe that is the root of all bullying.

Am amazed that anyone wants to be a teacher now.

Cumbrianmale56

growstuff

Cumbrianmale56

Kids can be nasty and will single out kids who look different, are no good at sports, have an interest that isn't popular or who they consider is easy to pick on. Sometimes, though, the bullies themselves come from a home where their father is aggressive, the kid has an image to live up to and can be victims themselves. I can remember a kid at school who bullied for a while and it turned out his dad was some kind of hard caser who wanted the son to be same. The son changed when he got to 15 and realised what he was doing was wrong.

Whatever a child's home background is like, it must be made absolutely clear that bullying is never acceptable in a school. It's unacceptable for anybody to make excuses.

Bullying and violent behaviour never is acceptable, but sometimes the bully has a problem in his personal life like a dad or elder brother who are considered hard men and make the son or sibling behave the same.
It's not always kids who are bullies as you can get some very nasty teachers who can make kids lives a misery. Obviously the end of corporal punishment reined the worst ones in, but some teachers can develop a dislike to a pupil and make their lives hard. I can remember my nephew being forced to do a cross country run when he had a serious chest infection and collapsed in the street. It was one of the reasons he quit school early.

I agree with you that teachers can be bullies. What you might not realise that teachers themselves can be the victims of bullies - either from other staff or pupils.

I'm very much aware that bullies can sometimes come from backgrounds where other family members are 'hard men' (or women). Nevertheless, it needs to be made clear to pupils and their families, if necessary, that bullying is not acceptable in schools - ever.

growstuff

Cumbrianmale56

Kids can be nasty and will single out kids who look different, are no good at sports, have an interest that isn't popular or who they consider is easy to pick on. Sometimes, though, the bullies themselves come from a home where their father is aggressive, the kid has an image to live up to and can be victims themselves. I can remember a kid at school who bullied for a while and it turned out his dad was some kind of hard caser who wanted the son to be same. The son changed when he got to 15 and realised what he was doing was wrong.

Whatever a child's home background is like, it must be made absolutely clear that bullying is never acceptable in a school. It's unacceptable for anybody to make excuses.

Bullying and violent behaviour never is acceptable, but sometimes the bully has a problem in his personal life like a dad or elder brother who are considered hard men and make the son or sibling behave the same.
It's not always kids who are bullies as you can get some very nasty teachers who can make kids lives a misery. Obviously the end of corporal punishment reined the worst ones in, but some teachers can develop a dislike to a pupil and make their lives hard. I can remember my nephew being forced to do a cross country run when he had a serious chest infection and collapsed in the street. It was one of the reasons he quit school early.