The Farmers Fight

If future generations of farmers’ sons (and let’s not forget the daughters) have to keep nibbling away at productive land, selling it off to pay inheritance tax, there will be no farms left to pass on.
Farmers don’t just provide us with food, they are custodians of the British countryside.

The fact that a farm might be worth £millions is irrelevant if it is to remain as a farm producing food for the population and not to be sold off for housing or to build yet another shopping mall, warehousing etc.

You forgot to mention that the farm is likely to be bought by a very wealthy person seeking to avoid inheritance tax. Not all farmland is adjacent to urban areas and likely to be sold for housing, shopping malls, etc.

LizzieDrip

Here are 2 scenarios:

Person A owns, and works in, a family business. The business is not a farm. It was started by his great grandfather and has been passed down through the generations of his family. Each time the business has passed to the next generation, 40% inheritance tax has been paid.

Person B owns, and works in, a family farm. It was started by his great grandfather and has been passed down through the generations of his family. Each time the farm has passed to the next generation, 0% inheritance tax has been paid.

Fair???

Well, I wonder what one or two of you live on 🤔

Fresh air?

As a business owner, the value of your trading company is generally not subject to IHT, as it qualifies for Business Relief.
Can you tell me exactly when IHT is paid on businesses, please?

LizzieDrip family businesses trading as a limited company are exempt from IHT on all shares held for over two years.

Seems unfair on the farmers to me.

Do we want to live in a world where vast swathes of agricultural land are bought up by the likes of Bill Gates and Black Rock,? their ultimate objective is something we should ponder but it points very much to powerful un-elected individuals/entities having some sort of control over what the food the masses will be eating

Here are 2 scenarios:

Person A owns, and works in, a family business. The business is not a farm. It was started by his great grandfather and has been passed down through the generations of his family. Each time the business has passed to the next generation, 40% inheritance tax has been paid.

Person B owns, and works in, a family farm. It was started by his great grandfather and has been passed down through the generations of his family. Each time the farm has passed to the next generation, 0% inheritance tax has been paid.

Fair???

keepingquiet

I find this whole thing a bit puzzling to be honest.

Why is holding up traffic, causing a public nuisance, dumping cow-shit in Downing Street something to applaud?

We seem to have turned the tables here.

Striking, when doctors do it it's bad- but when farmers threaten to do it that's good?

I don't know much about inheritance tax because I won't ever have to pay it, no one I know has paid it, and my children won't have to pay it either.

Isn't this tax only paid when someone actually dies? It isn't taken from them at source on a regular basis as was the income tax I paid all my fifty years of working life, or is it? Would someone explain when these farmers will have to pay this tax?

I understand the farmers will have to hold over £3 million worth of assets? I find it difficult to feel sorry for someone with that much wealth to be honest.

I heard a farmer recently comparing themselves to the miners, which as someone whose family had been mining for over six generations, was quite frankly insulting. I think if you added up the total wealth my family made from mining for hundreds of years it wouldn't come near £3 million.

Of course we need the food, of course farmers work hard and deserve recognition- but some can't see the problems they face are no more than a little of a consequence of Brexit?

Project Fear has come home to roost and those who said we just had to face a little hardship are now having to deal with that 'hardship'.

Of course not all farmers voted for Brexit- they weren't listened to and now they are havng to deal with the reality like the rest of us.

Why is holding up traffic, causing a public nuisance, dumping cow-shit in Downing Street something to applaud?

When the source of our sustenance and our very existence is threatened.

keepingquiet you seem to be missing the point about this tax. The fact that a farm might be worth £millions is irrelevant if it is to remain as a farm producing food for the population and not to be sold off for housing or to build yet another shopping mall, warehousing etc.
The threshold at which IHT would be paid is £1 million, not £3 million. Farms are often passed down through the generations and each successive generation would be liable for this tax until there would be no farming left in this country.

How do you propose we manage without food?

John Charlesworth a 78yr old farmer took his own life, siting his fear of the proposed IHT on his farm according to his son.

David49

25Avalon

Farmers are cash poor and asset rich. Most of their wealth is tied up in the actual farm and buildings, so a 20% inheritance tax will force them to sell the farm rather than for family to continue farming. Leaving land fallow and growing no crops will leave farmers without an income so they would not be able to do it.

No, by growing half the quantity they can cut costs reduce labour and have an easier life, many now employ contractors to do some or all of the work so they will be doing less.

Farmers have very low living costs, the average age is well over 60, most of the younger generation only help out a busy times so they will do more outside the farm, the wife almost always has other work.

Its the food production side of the farm that is very unprofitable

Really? How many workers do you think they employ? It’s mostly themselves working ** hard all day and all year round. If you keep animals they still need feeding and milking whatever day of the year, even Christmas Day.

What do you mean by low living costs? How much money do you think they pay themselves for all the hours? Oh , sorry they don’t need to work so much because they have low living costs. Tell that to the livestock. What tosh.

Suicide rates amongst farmers is one of the highest. It can be a very lonely existence, with low pay and keeping the farm running, and now inheritance tax adding an extra burden. One such farmer has already killed himself.

The wife is usually making cheese, taking in paying guests, doing holiday let’s, setting up and running a farm shop and cafe etc to supplement the income.

GrannyGravy13

How many times in our lifetime do we need a doctor? hopefully not too often.

We need farmers and their produce every single day…

Good point.

How many times in our lifetime do we need a doctor? hopefully not too often.

We need farmers and their produce every single day…

Farmers don’t have the public sector option of working a four day week in the comfort of their urban homes on a 9-5. They don’t have a gold plated pension for shuffling paper around and passing the buck when they fail miserably in their remit and they don’t take £107K worth of freebies.

Striking, when doctors do it it's bad- but when farmers threaten to do it that's good?

They will not be striking. They will be protesting.
Farmers in general cannot strike, especially if they have livestock to care for. Livestock cannot wait like NHS patients have to wait.

keepingquiet the miners comment was generated by a former top aide to Tony Blair, John McTernan he said

Britain doesn’t need small farmers, and could do without the industry

and

Labour could do to the farmers what Margaret Thatcher did to the miners

The PM has had to distance himself from him and his comments.

In Wales the conservative vote has always been in agricultural areas

How do "the economists" get to 70% please Sarnia?

When this was first announced I looked up how many farms applied for the relief over the last few years. The ones that would have paid anything at all under this new system was either 8 or 12% (can't remember which).

Do they maybe mean 70% would be affected by it in that they would feel they have to pass their farms on earlier to their children if they want to be certain to avoid it?

Are they "affected" by it by simply having to think about it?

Please point me towards the maths.

Keepingquiet it’s assets that cannot be turned into cash without selling them off. So on paper they may have £3 million which is the market value of the house, buildings and fields but they can’t realise it and when they die that will all be taxed.

David49

25Avalon

Farmers are cash poor and asset rich. Most of their wealth is tied up in the actual farm and buildings, so a 20% inheritance tax will force them to sell the farm rather than for family to continue farming. Leaving land fallow and growing no crops will leave farmers without an income so they would not be able to do it.

No, by growing half the quantity they can cut costs reduce labour and have an easier life, many now employ contractors to do some or all of the work so they will be doing less.

Farmers have very low living costs, the average age is well over 60, most of the younger generation only help out a busy times so they will do more outside the farm, the wife almost always has other work.

Its the food production side of the farm that is very unprofitable

You are painting a picture of farming that is contradicting the 'family farm' narrative that is driving the outcry against the IHT initiative..

I find this whole thing a bit puzzling to be honest.

Why is holding up traffic, causing a public nuisance, dumping cow-shit in Downing Street something to applaud?

We seem to have turned the tables here.

Striking, when doctors do it it's bad- but when farmers threaten to do it that's good?

I don't know much about inheritance tax because I won't ever have to pay it, no one I know has paid it, and my children won't have to pay it either.

Isn't this tax only paid when someone actually dies? It isn't taken from them at source on a regular basis as was the income tax I paid all my fifty years of working life, or is it? Would someone explain when these farmers will have to pay this tax?

I understand the farmers will have to hold over £3 million worth of assets? I find it difficult to feel sorry for someone with that much wealth to be honest.

I heard a farmer recently comparing themselves to the miners, which as someone whose family had been mining for over six generations, was quite frankly insulting. I think if you added up the total wealth my family made from mining for hundreds of years it wouldn't come near £3 million.

Of course we need the food, of course farmers work hard and deserve recognition- but some can't see the problems they face are no more than a little of a consequence of Brexit?

Project Fear has come home to roost and those who said we just had to face a little hardship are now having to deal with that 'hardship'.

Of course not all farmers voted for Brexit- they weren't listened to and now they are havng to deal with the reality like the rest of us.

David49

MaizieD

What I think will happen is that farmers will reduce production, by growing crops every other year thereby reducing the cost of chemicals and fertilizers.

I'm trying to work out the logic behind this. Are you saying that farmers can earn enough in one year to support them through a non earning year? That rather contradicts the narrative of farmers barely able to subsist on what they earn over a year.

Are farmers working at a loss or are they not?

Of course, that would only apply to arable, wouldn't it. They couldn't 'rest' livestock for a year...

The profit margin on many crops is very low, in many cases there are crop failures because crop protection chemicals are so restricted and expensive.

By growing alternate years fertilizer can be reduced and there is less disease to reduce yield, it has happened before prices were very low, fields were fallowed because it was not economic to grow a crop.

Fine, David, but what did the farmers live on?

The root of all this is the complex mechanism we call 'the economy'.

While it continues to be run to engender growing inequality there will be a demand for cheap food because actually overtly starving the poor isn't good optics, but paying them enough to be able to afford food priced to take account of farmers' costs of production is not permitted in our 'wealthy takes the lion's share' economic system.

Until we come to our senses and understand, and call for, a better way of organising our economy the non wealthy in a huge variety of occupations are going to suffer.

25Avalon

Farmers are cash poor and asset rich. Most of their wealth is tied up in the actual farm and buildings, so a 20% inheritance tax will force them to sell the farm rather than for family to continue farming. Leaving land fallow and growing no crops will leave farmers without an income so they would not be able to do it.

No, by growing half the quantity they can cut costs reduce labour and have an easier life, many now employ contractors to do some or all of the work so they will be doing less.

Farmers have very low living costs, the average age is well over 60, most of the younger generation only help out a busy times so they will do more outside the farm, the wife almost always has other work.

Its the food production side of the farm that is very unprofitable

By growing alternate years fertilizer can be reduced and there is less disease to reduce yield, it has happened before prices were very low, fields were fallowed because it was not economic to grow a crop.

Farmers were paid for ‘set aside’ so their income wasn’t reduced. This was ended by the EU in 2008.

Inheritance tax will still apply to organic growers who don’t use chemicals. What about them?

Yes David49 but not the whole farm ceasing to grow food, maybe just a couple of fields left fallow.

MaizieD

^What I think will happen is that farmers will reduce production, by growing crops every other year thereby reducing the cost of chemicals and fertilizers.^

I'm trying to work out the logic behind this. Are you saying that farmers can earn enough in one year to support them through a non earning year? That rather contradicts the narrative of farmers barely able to subsist on what they earn over a year.

Are farmers working at a loss or are they not?

Of course, that would only apply to arable, wouldn't it. They couldn't 'rest' livestock for a year...

The profit margin on many crops is very low, in many cases there are crop failures because crop protection chemicals are so restricted and expensive.

By growing alternate years fertilizer can be reduced and there is less disease to reduce yield, it has happened before prices were very low, fields were fallowed because it was not economic to grow a crop.

Even if we have a change of government in the next few years, I doubt the farmers tax will be rescinded, its such a good money spinner. Small farms will disappear as sons won't be able to take on the family farms.
However, they now intend to build houses on greenfield sites so there soon won't be enough land left to grow food - you can't plough and sow on the mountain sides can you?
I hope the farmers bring their old smelly manure spreaders without cleaning them and drop mud and muck all over Whitehall.
History should tell them, if they look back at the start of WW2 when we almost ran out of food because we imported so much of it.