Reform. 140,748 members and counting. The Tories are well and truly in trouble!

Cossy

HousePlantQueen

It is posts like those by nanna8, which "suggest" that Starmer plans to shut down GB news, and that he, personally,locks up people for hate speech which annoy me intensely.

And me too! They are unfounded, “knee-jerk” comments and can really irk.

I can't find the post you referred to, HousePlantQueen

Was it on this thread as I don't remember nanna8 saying that.

According to the Nuffield Trust, to match French health expenditure (in PPP-adjusted terms), the UK would have to spend roughly 21% more per person according to the latest OECD data, or £58 billion.

www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/news-item/is-french-style-health-care-the-answer-why-we-should-stop-idealising-other-health-systems#:~:text=To%20match%20French%20health%20expenditure,data%2C%20or%20%C2%A358%20billion.

That's a considerable increase. Just think what the NHS, even in its current form, could provide with that kind of extra funding. There would be no need for a change to an insurance model.

Growstuff 👍🏻
Isn’t it infuriating we’ve had 14 years of mismanagement

I’m glad you have told the true story of French spending on health care, growstuff. We’ve had comparison with France come up over and over again over the years and that same statistic has been pointed out every time. But somehow it gets ignored☹️

I think posters are —weirdly— seduced by the notion of making a contribution via insurance. Do they think that it is the payment element that somehow improves the service?

10.27 yesterday

Wyllow3

ronib

Why is there such a rush for the public to demand opposition parties write their manifesto years in advance of the next election? I seem to remember that Reform had produced its own manifesto for the last election.
From what I understand, there are no guarantees that manifestos are followed up once elected so why fuss?

With Reform its not a matter of requesting a detailed manifesto as per election, it's that it talks "bold completely new visions" of a different kind of society politically and culturally - Small State, overturning present systems.

I think its reasonable to want details - a picture, of this apparent new vision and how the little elements its leaked (cut huge numbers civil service, that it can turn back the boats, completely different approach to health aligning ourselves with the USA not Europe - but what about other concerns like all our social welfare systems, education, prisons, justice system...

A few broad brush strokes and lots of rhetoric aren't good enough.

Its high on rhetoric but empty on credible vision

I quite agree, Reform & others should detail their policies and how they're going to achieve whatever but they don't, they rely on votes from people who vote for someone they could have a drink with and Farage certainly fulfils that brief, as did Johnson, People just assume these 'nice blokes' will have their best interests at heart, they don't.

It irks me that before the election parties can promise what they know will get them votes, but ditch the plans when they get in, whereas if you bought a kettle and it didn't do what it said on the packet, you could take it back.

I suppose they don't know all the details of what they will inherit, as with our own gov't not knowing the full details of the finances.

When might the Uk stop being mismanaged is the real question? Never mind the last 14 - when do we turn the corner, if ever?

FriedGreenTomatoes2

But then again posters opinion France (Mamie plus others) sing the praises of French healthcare. Maybe we ought to be more open to considering it? Especially as our system is is fragmenting?

I think we should certainly be looking at the healthcare systems of other European nations - The Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Finland, France...

In 2014, Farage indicated that he thought the state-funded NHS should move towards an insurance-based system run by private companies - it is on camera.

... although he did back-pedal on that. But I think that's what worries people, still. It sounds more like a US-style healthcare model.

And Farage is very much a 'market' man.

spabbygirl

Wyllow3

ronib

Why is there such a rush for the public to demand opposition parties write their manifesto years in advance of the next election? I seem to remember that Reform had produced its own manifesto for the last election.
From what I understand, there are no guarantees that manifestos are followed up once elected so why fuss?

With Reform its not a matter of requesting a detailed manifesto as per election, it's that it talks "bold completely new visions" of a different kind of society politically and culturally - Small State, overturning present systems.

I think its reasonable to want details - a picture, of this apparent new vision and how the little elements its leaked (cut huge numbers civil service, that it can turn back the boats, completely different approach to health aligning ourselves with the USA not Europe - but what about other concerns like all our social welfare systems, education, prisons, justice system...

A few broad brush strokes and lots of rhetoric aren't good enough.

Its high on rhetoric but empty on credible vision

I quite agree, Reform & others should detail their policies and how they're going to achieve whatever but they don't, they rely on votes from people who vote for someone they could have a drink with and Farage certainly fulfils that brief, as did Johnson, People just assume these 'nice blokes' will have their best interests at heart, they don't.

It irks me that before the election parties can promise what they know will get them votes, but ditch the plans when they get in, whereas if you bought a kettle and it didn't do what it said on the packet, you could take it back.

I suppose they don't know all the details of what they will inherit, as with our own gov't not knowing the full details of the finances.

Reform should detail their
policies? like labour did? Look how
well that’s worked out..🤦‍♀️
Labour had years to work on their policies and have renaged on a lot of of them
Reform has plenty of time to put their policies out…

Everything costs a fortune for us in Australia because we are not eligible for a government pension. We think twice about going to the doctor and even though we have private health insurance for hospital cover ,the ‘gap’ between what is insured and what is not insured is very big. We get no relief on anything except public transport which we rarely use anyway. Do not, I repeat, do not, go down that road. We are not rich but we are not poor,either, so we get ‘punished’ If
Farage wants to bring in our system duck and run!

nanna8

Everything costs a fortune for us in Australia because we are not eligible for a government pension. We think twice about going to the doctor and even though we have private health insurance for hospital cover ,the ‘gap’ between what is insured and what is not insured is very big. We get no relief on anything except public transport which we rarely use anyway. Do not, I repeat, do not, go down that road. We are not rich but we are not poor,either, so we get ‘punished’ If
Farage wants to bring in our system duck and run!

Hopefully, those who are even thinking that Farage could be PM one day will get this message!

Nanna8 Do you mean there’s no such thing as a state pension in Australia? I know very little indeed about benefits there. We had good neighbours who emigrated to Perth in 1996 when they were in their early 60’s but I’ve no idea whether they got any pension. I know they were able to buy their house with a pool outright as a new build.

Dickens

FriedGreenTomatoes2

But then again posters opinion France (Mamie plus others) sing the praises of French healthcare. Maybe we ought to be more open to considering it? Especially as our system is is fragmenting?

I think we should certainly be looking at the healthcare systems of other European nations - The Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Finland, France...

In 2014, Farage indicated that he thought the state-funded NHS should move towards an insurance-based system run by private companies - it is on camera.

... although he did back-pedal on that. But I think that's what worries people, still. It sounds more like a US-style healthcare model.

And Farage is very much a 'market' man.

The Netherlands and France have social insurance models of paying for healthcare, while Norway and Denmark have tax-based systems. It has never been shown that any particular funding model produces better outcomes. Nevertheless, what the Netherlands, Norway, France, Finland and Denmark have in common is that more is pent per head on healthcare than in the UK.

glammagran

Nanna8 Do you mean there’s no such thing as a state pension in Australia? I know very little indeed about benefits there. We had good neighbours who emigrated to Perth in 1996 when they were in their early 60’s but I’ve no idea whether they got any pension. I know they were able to buy their house with a pool outright as a new build.

It's means-tested, they take assets into consideration when assessing whether or not you are eligible.
It's complicated!

Wyllow3

Reform/Farage mentions the Australian pension model as a way to go. here's what it means: (to see google Australian pension system)

"Age Pension

The Age Pension is a means-tested, non-contributory, publicly funded pension that's a key part of Australia's retirement income system.
To receive the Age Pension, you must pass an income test, an assets test, and meet residence rules. The Department of Social Services reviews the assets test limits and cut off points three times a year."

(plus earnings related private sector pensions where contributions paid in)

Seems to me he's doing a pic n mix

I've just quoted my own post as I posted it above, and its tells us what the Australian stat pension system is which Farage has said is a good system to follow.

do we really want

To receive the Age Pension, you must pass an income test, an assets test, and meet residence rules. The Department of Social Services reviews the assets test limits and cut off points three times a year."

growstuff

Dickens

FriedGreenTomatoes2

But then again posters opinion France (Mamie plus others) sing the praises of French healthcare. Maybe we ought to be more open to considering it? Especially as our system is is fragmenting?

I think we should certainly be looking at the healthcare systems of other European nations - The Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Finland, France...

In 2014, Farage indicated that he thought the state-funded NHS should move towards an insurance-based system run by private companies - it is on camera.

... although he did back-pedal on that. But I think that's what worries people, still. It sounds more like a US-style healthcare model.

And Farage is very much a 'market' man.

The Netherlands and France have social insurance models of paying for healthcare, while Norway and Denmark have tax-based systems. It has never been shown that any particular funding model produces better outcomes. Nevertheless, what the Netherlands, Norway, France, Finland and Denmark have in common is that more is pent per head on healthcare than in the UK.

I've never researched any studies on the different funding models, so take your word for it.

I do know that the NHS was in many ways a role-model for the Norwegian healthcare system... here's an interesting 'outside' view of our healthcare system debated during a seminar in Oslo.

The conclusion is interesting (in view of the Lansley reforms)...

Having looked to Britain for inspiration for our national health care for two generations, we are grateful for what we have achieved. As for the future, we may have to search for other ideals. Perhaps we should set even higher goals and, as quoted by Steinar Westin, have the ambition to bring a message to the world that we ourselves have developed a health care model worth looking at for others (8).

glammagran

Nanna8 Do you mean there’s no such thing as a state pension in Australia? I know very little indeed about benefits there. We had good neighbours who emigrated to Perth in 1996 when they were in their early 60’s but I’ve no idea whether they got any pension. I know they were able to buy their house with a pool outright as a new build.

The state pension in Australia is means tested using a system very like our Pdnsion Credit assessment.

Workplace pension was brought in to start us on the road to a means tested system for future pensioners and is similar but not as high as Australian payments into their Superannuation.

We think twice about going to the doctor and even though we have private health insurance for hospital cover ,the ‘gap’ between what is insured and what is not insured is very big. Do not, I repeat, do not, go down that road….If Farage wants to bring in our system duck and run

Thanks for this nanna.

Those who are living with insurance based health systems are the ones best placed to inform us about the reality of them.

Farage supporters please take note!

LizzieDrip

^We think twice about going to the doctor and even though we have private health insurance for hospital cover ,the ‘gap’ between what is insured and what is not insured is very big. Do not, I repeat, do not, go down that road….If Farage wants to bring in our system duck and run^

Thanks for this nanna.

Those who are living with insurance based health systems are the ones best placed to inform us about the reality of them.

Farage supporters please take note!

We don't really know what healthcare system Farage / Reform has or would have in mind at this point.

He did say in 2012 or thereabout that he thought the NHS would have to be replaced with private health insurance.

"I think we are going to have to move to an insurance-based system of healthcare. Frankly, I would feel more comfortable that my money would return value if I was able to do that through the marketplace of an insurance company, than just us trustingly giving £100bn a year to central government and expecting them to organise the healthcare service from cradle to grave for us.”

... but he was compelled to backtrack because this didn't go down too well with those in Ukip who wanted to broaden its appeal.

Later he said, “I don’t want to hand faceless private-sector companies control of our health service. We’ve now have two successive governments who have done that and it is clear that it doesn’t work.”

So who knows quite what he has in mind?

Private health insurance systems are fine if you are wealthy and healthy - if you only need a simple, straightforward op or procedure for a minor sports injury, or uncomplicated run-of-the-mill surgery, but not if you are older with complex medical conditions.

One of the other positives of the French system is the amount of ancillary employment it provides; taxi drivers, the carers who support the more qualified nursing staff, porters, cleaners etc.
We have spent a huge amount of time in our local hospital and nearby teaching hospital in the last two years and the care at all levels has been exemplary. My DH has had access to cutting-edge treatments with no delays.
Seventy per cent of the payment for medical treatment comes from the state via the equivalent of national insurance. For the rest you pay 30% via top-up insurance. It is not compulsory and you can choose the level of payment (From choice, we pay at the highest level and get refunds including the cost of spectacles etc). Insurance companies are tightly regulated and are not allowed to discriminate against existing conditions.
Serious long-term illnesses are funded by the state at 100% and you do not pay top-up insurance if you are below a certain taxation level.
We pay about 350€ a month for the two of us, but then there is no road tax here and council tax on our house is only 600€ a year.
The paperwork is hefty and unless it is a hospital based emergency, you take the responsibility for finding your own dermatologist, cardiologist, physiotherapist etc and making appointments. You also get to see the cost of your treatment and the amount refunded by top-up insurance.

I am quite jealous Mamie - cutting edge treatments with no delays. Even if the Uk switched overnight to a part State funded part insurance health model, it would not make any difference as the infrastructure here is not anywhere close to your experiences. It’s interesting that the patient finds a medical professional so presumably the French system doesn’t have the equivalent of a gp?
I wonder if France has numerous locum doctors working at inflated daily rates?
How do you only pay 600 euros council tax when ours is a quantum leap higher?

ronib

I am quite jealous Mamie - cutting edge treatments with no delays. Even if the Uk switched overnight to a part State funded part insurance health model, it would not make any difference as the infrastructure here is not anywhere close to your experiences. It’s interesting that the patient finds a medical professional so presumably the French system doesn’t have the equivalent of a gp?
I wonder if France has numerous locum doctors working at inflated daily rates?
How do you only pay 600 euros council tax when ours is a quantum leap higher?

We do have a GP. Normally an appointment with her would be within two or three days unless urgent. We have locum GPs when ours are on holiday, The GO would need to sign off things like physiotherapy sessions and she recently told me to find a dermatologist to get checked over, which I did via a nationally on-line booking system.
We pay 30€ to the GP which is almost fully refunded and DH does not pay, as his is a serious long-term illness.
As I have said before, France is basically a socialist country, the state funds a good health service helped by top-up payments by people who can afford it.

How easy is it to reclaim 30 euros for a gp appointment? Seems to the outsider that this is another level of administration but for little financial gain. If most of 30 euros is refunded, what is the point of this arrangement? (Forgive my ignorance)

ronib

How easy is it to reclaim 30 euros for a gp appointment? Seems to the outsider that this is another level of administration but for little financial gain. If most of 30 euros is refunded, what is the point of this arrangement? (Forgive my ignorance)

It is automatic. The GP is paid with the 30€ which you hand over at the end of the consultation. You have a card called a Carte Vitale which registers the consultation and prescriptions (then uploaded and recorded in your online medical space). The payment is registered by your card and linked automatically to your top-up insurance and it is then refunded to your bank account.

Thank you for explaining Mamie but I still can’t understand why this system is seen as beneficial. Moving 30 euros around in this way seems illogical to me at any rate. Exactly where is the gain?