Reform. 140,748 members and counting. The Tories are well and truly in trouble!

Incidentally, I read PoliticsNerd's post as being highly critical of GB News, not of the people who like it.

ronib

Why is there such a rush for the public to demand opposition parties write their manifesto years in advance of the next election? I seem to remember that Reform had produced its own manifesto for the last election.
From what I understand, there are no guarantees that manifestos are followed up once elected so why fuss?

With Reform its not a matter of requesting a detailed manifesto as per election, it's that it talks "bold completely new visions" of a different kind of society politically and culturally - Small State, overturning present systems.

I think its reasonable to want details - a picture, of this apparent new vision and how the little elements its leaked (cut huge numbers civil service, that it can turn back the boats, completely different approach to health aligning ourselves with the USA not Europe - but what about other concerns like all our social welfare systems, education, prisons, justice system...

A few broad brush strokes and lots of rhetoric aren't good enough.

Its high on rhetoric but empty on credible vision

Not particularly linked to the current government Maizie but mantras such as sex work is work, and lots of the other luxury beliefs.

Oh I would possibly include the assisted dying bill as legislation which will have a different impact on the privileged than on the vulnerable.

nanna8

I actually agree with you Cossy and I wouldn’t vote for him ,he is too risky. However, I think Starmer needs to change and listen to people and if Nigel makes him do that, well good. Sometimes it takes someone with the gift of the gab to make changes. Farage is certainly gabby - the most talented speaker around just now, love him or despise him. To just dismiss and despise someone like that and his ‘populist’ supporters in a snooty way will make more people follow him. Life teaches some of us those things.

I agree nanna8, he has said he wants a health system like France where (he says you pay if you can & if you can't you don't) but he neglects to say not everyone gets free healthcare, you have to pay up front and you only get part of what you've spent back depending on the level of supplementary care you've bought.

I would also worry that not every condition would be paid for. I've watched my own podiatry care vanish in recent years and few have the luxury of an NHS dentist.

Farage is gobby, a disruptor, and that is his only saving grace, not that it does anything for me. I wouldn't trust him either, especially since his role in leaving the EU.

I tell people who vote Reform they must want to pay their own health bills, because that is what will happen.

Starmer's biggest fault is being so boring, but I see that as no bad thing in a PM, except that it stops you selling yourself to the people. I think having a press largely owned by billionaires gives people a biased account of the world most of them don't want to pay more tax. Labour does have people with better appeal, like Darren Jones for example

Galaxy

I think it is not just economic policies that need to be included in that. Many social/cultural issues cheered on by the 'haves' are absolutely disastrous for the have nots.

Yes, I agree.

I'd like to delve deeper into that. But it could be a minefield - you have to choose your words so carefully sometimes, and even then they can be misunderstood or mis-represented, sometimes deliberately.

I take your points Wyllow3 but I think if Reform doesn’t begin to firm up on its vision over the next 18 months or so, it won’t be difficult for politicians to pick up on this. Kemi B seems up for the fight. Reform is still in the process of making itself into a political movement so that won’t happen overnight.
I don’t think that Starmer will be bothered by Reform as it’s in Labour’s interest to split the right wing vote.

Nothing much Labour can do about winning those determined to vote Reform. Yes Reform do promise tax cuts for the wealthy, they will quite likely be matched by means testing benefits and services. The “free” services/benefits we get now will be set at a much lower level, similar to US and other countries.

Reform/Farage mentions the Australian pension model as a way to go. here's what it means: (to see google Australian pension system)

"Age Pension

The Age Pension is a means-tested, non-contributory, publicly funded pension that's a key part of Australia's retirement income system.
To receive the Age Pension, you must pass an income test, an assets test, and meet residence rules. The Department of Social Services reviews the assets test limits and cut off points three times a year."

(plus earnings related private sector pensions where contributions paid in)

Seems to me he's doing a pic n mix

Wyllow3

ronib

Why is there such a rush for the public to demand opposition parties write their manifesto years in advance of the next election? I seem to remember that Reform had produced its own manifesto for the last election.
From what I understand, there are no guarantees that manifestos are followed up once elected so why fuss?

With Reform its not a matter of requesting a detailed manifesto as per election, it's that it talks "bold completely new visions" of a different kind of society politically and culturally - Small State, overturning present systems.

I think its reasonable to want details - a picture, of this apparent new vision and how the little elements its leaked (cut huge numbers civil service, that it can turn back the boats, completely different approach to health aligning ourselves with the USA not Europe - but what about other concerns like all our social welfare systems, education, prisons, justice system...

A few broad brush strokes and lots of rhetoric aren't good enough.

Its high on rhetoric but empty on credible vision

But lots of people love it...

David49

Nothing much Labour can do about winning those determined to vote Reform. Yes Reform do promise tax cuts for the wealthy, they will quite likely be matched by means testing benefits and services. The “free” services/benefits we get now will be set at a much lower level, similar to US and other countries.

Yes Reform do promise tax cuts for the wealthy,...

The lure of the tax cuts will also appeal to the not-so-wealthy though - even paying a bit less tax is not to be sneezed at.

But I don't think it will offset the extra costs incurred for services and procedures that might then have to be paid for.

My OH has had a necessary procedure in hospital on a fairly regular basis. It is still free - but months ago the criteria for having it was 'tightened', and then tightened some more with the end result that he will have to be in 'dire straits' before he's allowed it again.

One could say of course, that is how it should be anyway. But when you are living with constant pain, it's not easy to be philosophical about it. I think we will ultimately end up paying privately for it, but the cost is a bit more than the odd podiatry appointment which totals around £40 (which we along with numerous other Diabetics now pay for).

It all adds up - this creep towards privatisation.

Farage's constituency, Clacton, is allegedly among the top % of most deprived neighbourhoods, and Jaywick Sands the most deprived in England, and I can't help but question how well the inhabitants are going to fare if - as has been suggested by various media outlets - Farage's Reform party is eventually elected with him as PM... if he really is going to go down the NHS privatisation / insurance route. Which we won't know until his policies are fleshed out.

MaizieD I don’t agree that lots of people love Reform. If the paid up membership is around 150k that’s not too significant unless the membership will turn out in force at local elections to campaign.
I still have a vivid recollection of Boris Johnson promising 40 new hospitals. This set the bar for me and I am left wondering why voters place any trust in politicians?

and I am left wondering why voters place any trust in politicians?

Perversely, ronib, I think people love Reform for precisely that reason. They don't trust politicians. But Farage isn't a politician, he's a good bloke who understands how they feel and he'll see them right...

Johnson wasn't seen as a politician, either. He was just a good bloke who'd see us right... Still is in some peoples eyes.

Good blokes don’t go into politics so when do we wake up? MaizieD

Some good people do go into politics. The cynicism suggesting they’re all the same, all in it for themselves is a very lazy and inaccurate analysis

ronib

Good blokes don’t go into politics so when do we wake up? MaizieD

Well, you ask me, ronib?

The 'good blokes' in my context is those you can have a drink and a laugh with in the pub. Like, yer mates...

I think that you and Iam have a totally different concept of a 'good bloke'

Some excellent people have gone into politics. I don't share the cynicism. I am an absolute believer in the story that people like to tell about themselves. Just as long as others back up the story.

HousePlantQueen

It is posts like those by nanna8, which "suggest" that Starmer plans to shut down GB news, and that he, personally,locks up people for hate speech which annoy me intensely.

And me too! They are unfounded, “knee-jerk” comments and can really irk.

Jeanathome

*Brexit was in the main a ghost option to release closet racists*

They are certainly out and proud now alright.

I sadly agree

Cossy

Jeanathome

Brexit was in the main a ghost option to release closet racists

They are certainly out and proud now alright.

I sadly agree

Waves at MaizeD. It’s a relief to have fellow travellers during turbulent times. It isn’t about agreeing on everything, it’s more about a wider shared understanding of collective responsibility. That we need good public services, something dear to my heart.

Allira

^I am a strong advocate for democracy, which inherently includes accepting that others may hold different views and make different choices at the ballot box. It’s important to recognize that supporting democracy means acknowledging diverse opinions, even when they oppose my own. I hope we can engage in constructive dialogue^

It's just a lot of populist rot HousePlantQueen. I should try and ignore it. No one would waste time bringing in laws simply for the likes of GBeebies - their infantile drivel isn't worth it. They should generally be treated as they behave - like small children. Children in a paddy are best checked for safety and then ignored

Well, those two contradictory statements have given me a good chuckle, PoliticsNerd

😂

In one Allira!
You said it before I could.

Dickens

Galaxy

I think it is not just economic policies that need to be included in that. Many social/cultural issues cheered on by the 'haves' are absolutely disastrous for the have nots.

Yes, I agree.

I'd like to delve deeper into that. But it could be a minefield - you have to choose your words so carefully sometimes, and even then they can be misunderstood or mis-represented, sometimes deliberately.

Indeed ladies.

Dickens

David49

Nothing much Labour can do about winning those determined to vote Reform. Yes Reform do promise tax cuts for the wealthy, they will quite likely be matched by means testing benefits and services. The “free” services/benefits we get now will be set at a much lower level, similar to US and other countries.

Yes Reform do promise tax cuts for the wealthy,...

The lure of the tax cuts will also appeal to the not-so-wealthy though - even paying a bit less tax is not to be sneezed at.

But I don't think it will offset the extra costs incurred for services and procedures that might then have to be paid for.

My OH has had a necessary procedure in hospital on a fairly regular basis. It is still free - but months ago the criteria for having it was 'tightened', and then tightened some more with the end result that he will have to be in 'dire straits' before he's allowed it again.

One could say of course, that is how it should be anyway. But when you are living with constant pain, it's not easy to be philosophical about it. I think we will ultimately end up paying privately for it, but the cost is a bit more than the odd podiatry appointment which totals around £40 (which we along with numerous other Diabetics now pay for).

It all adds up - this creep towards privatisation.

Farage's constituency, Clacton, is allegedly among the top % of most deprived neighbourhoods, and Jaywick Sands the most deprived in England, and I can't help but question how well the inhabitants are going to fare if - as has been suggested by various media outlets - Farage's Reform party is eventually elected with him as PM... if he really is going to go down the NHS privatisation / insurance route. Which we won't know until his policies are fleshed out.

True Dickens to an extent. But then again posters opinion France (Mamie plus others) sing the praises of French healthcare. Maybe we ought to be more open to considering it? Especially as our system is is fragmenting?

Breaking News:

Reform Uk membership now stand at 155,097.
It’s increasing day by day!

We can tread carefully in minefields - I’m not a Reform/Trump/Farrage supporter even in a tiny way. My constituency voted my neighbour as our Labour MP. She’s working really hard on issues I care about. We are a marginal that predicts which way the general election will go. If Reform hadn’t split the Tory vote it could have been a less happy outcome for me.
Politics needs consensus - we need to listen and explore why things are so polarised.