Cheer up, Bridget, your lucky day is nigh!

I'm not sure why some people claim VAT on private schools is a result of "envy", I honestly don't understand that - VAT is payable on all sorts of luxuries - and private education is a luxury for most as they cant afford it. Is VAT on cars "the politics of envy" - since not everyone can afford an expensive car?, or expensive jewellery - should we take VAT off such luxuries since its obviously the "politics of envy'?

Allira

^I just feel that without the option of private education there would be more pressure on government to make sure that every child, no matter how rich or poor they are, is given the best possible start in life education wise so they can fulfil their true potential^

That should be an absolute given anyway.

Of course it should. But it isn't, and it's pointless pretending that it is.

I missed the 11+ and went to a very early comprehensive - the first year to do so in my area, and it was dreadful. I went into the 'top' stream, who were previously expected to have gone to grammar school, and it was bad enough for me (to be fair, I don't think many people got much of an education in state schools in the 70s), but the 'lower' streams weren't even taught the same subjects. We were divided into O level, CSE and no exam streams from the start and treated accordingly.

I did French, German and Latin, the CSE stream did European studies and goodness knows what the equivalent for the lower stream was. I did Biology, Chemistry and Physics, the CSE lot did General Science, and I think the others did Environmental Studies. The bottom stream did Gardening and Housecraft instead of Biology and academic subjects. There was no chance of moving to a 'higher' stream. Obviously there was resentment, and bullying was endemic.

It was huge culture shock, as I went there straight from a small primary school where teachers and parents were friends. I suppose my family was middle class (Dad in CS senior management, Mum stayed at home), but we were far from well-off or in any way pretentious, yet I was called a snob, which I wasn't. I left as soon as I could and the only thing I learnt was how to get on with a wide range of people and how to stand up to bullies. I guess both of those things have stood me in reasonable stead one way or another, but career-wise, if I hadn't had the support of Mr Dog to go back into education in my 20s I would have had a job rather than a career. Much, I suppose, as if I'd gone to a secondary modern. It was dumbing down.

Speaking personally, I would almost certainly have been better off under a grammar school system, but I am well aware of the unfairness of condemning the majority of children to that sort of 'education' and creaming off a few for 'better things'. It wasn't even fairly done, as has been explained upthread. In some areas it was far easier to get to grammar school than in others, yet many older people still boast about it as pensioners . A friend of mine went to a girls' grammar and boasts about her 'excellent education', despite leaving at 15 with no qualifications.

My children went to state schools, and by then schools had got their act together and it was easier to move streams - my children were streamed by subject for a start, which we weren't. However, our local high school gets 'excellent' OFSTED results, largely because the staff are very well aware of how to weight the system in their favour, and only enter children for exams if they know they will do well. The school scores far better than the equivalent school in a neighbouring but worse-off town, but in the neighbouring school more children get more chances to do well.

I have two bright children (I know - I would say that, wouldn't I, but as everyone on GN has exceptional children/grandchildren, why be modest ?) and one of them is dyslexic. They had very different experiences, despite the fact that I worked in education and was not reticent about advocating for the dyslexic child and knew how to do it effectively.

Of course it should have been a given that I was taught in a way that encouraged such abilities as I had, and that my children should have had equal and tailored experiences at school, but none of us did.

I don't want to condemn more children to that, but it shouldn't be a binary choice. Neither do I see the answer as allowing those who are more likely to complain about failings to just take the easy way out by paying for an experience that doesn't rely on their input. If everyone had to advocate for children then those whose parents were unable to do so would be carried along in a more general move to higher standards because all articulate and knowledgeable parents would be doing so. Isn't that fair?

I appreciate that one of the reasons for the success of private schools is that staff are well aware that paying parents want value for money, so they 'up their game' or get out. Why can't that be a tenet of education in general? Lack of money and investment, general disenchantment, being worn down by experience - all of those things are understandable, but shouldn't be the norm, and I can't help thinking that things would change if there wasn't an 'opt out' for those who can afford it.

In the interests of full disclosure though, I would ban private schools altogether, so to me bringing them in line with general taxation is something of a concession.

escaped

So, that's it MayBee70. Tomorrow Bridget Phillipson should buy every full time teacher a nice new desk out of the windfall! I'd say £300 would do the job nicely, x 500,000 teachers, and still money over! Sorted!
I really don't care what educational resource or piece of equipment she spends it on, I just want tangible evidence of where the money is going to help all the children of 2024/25.

I gave details of the Schools funding budget on page 2, but thats so long ago on this thread I'll briefly repeat

The 2024-25 UK budget includes a number of funding items for education, including:

Core schools budget: £2.3 billion

(Childcare: £1.8 billion
Further education: £300 million)

Capital funding: £6.7 billion, including £1.4 billion for school rebuilding, £2 billion for school maintenance, and £950 million for skills capital

Teachers' pay award: £827.5 million for 2024-25

Teachers' Pension Scheme employer contribution rate: £1.1 billion for 2024-25

VAT on private school fees: 20% from January 1, 2025 , for more teachers.

The total funding for schools in England in 2024-25 is £60.7 billion, which is the highest ever in real terms per pupil

MayBee70

Allira

I just feel that without the option of private education there would be more pressure on government to make sure that every child, no matter how rich or poor they are, is given the best possible start in life education wise so they can fulfil their true potential

That should be an absolute given anyway.

But it isn’t though . My daughter left teaching for several reasons but one of them was the lack of resources and class sizes. At one time she didn’t even have a desk.

It needs to be a given, and we need the money from the VAT to help towards what is a very uphill task in very tough financial times.

Despite the difficulties, many state schools are doing well by our children. I have 4 grandchildren happy and doing well enough, 2 in a local primary village school, one in a comprehensive, and one in a special school as she is severely disabled. Its a countryside area in the North-East.

So, that's it MayBee70. Tomorrow Bridget Phillipson should buy every full time teacher a nice new desk out of the windfall! I'd say £300 would do the job nicely, x 500,000 teachers, and still money over! Sorted!
I really don't care what educational resource or piece of equipment she spends it on, I just want tangible evidence of where the money is going to help all the children of 2024/25.

cc

Wyllow3

All these predictions of huge numbers leaving and swamped state schools, and there isn't yet any evidence number wise at all.

Where are the press articles that point in this direction? I can find none - I've checked all the major papers front pages.

Apparetly it is recognised as a problem in Surrey already, and local authorites there have admitted that they don't have enough places for those seeking to enter state schools
bmmagazine.co.uk/news/surrey-runs-out-of-state-school-places-for-private-pupils-as-vat-raid-bites/

A rather muddled article as it contradicts itself. It is clearly saying that as things stand there would not be enough places in September 2025 if (and we have no source for these estimates of numbers leaving private education) 24.000 students need to transfer.

However

"Clare Curran, a Surrey County Council cabinet member, acknowledged the challenge but maintained that the council would monitor the situation and consider expanding certain state schools if the need arose.

Allira

^I just feel that without the option of private education there would be more pressure on government to make sure that every child, no matter how rich or poor they are, is given the best possible start in life education wise so they can fulfil their true potential^

That should be an absolute given anyway.

But it isn’t though . My daughter left teaching for several reasons but one of them was the lack of resources and class sizes. At one time she didn’t even have a desk.

I just feel that without the option of private education there would be more pressure on government to make sure that every child, no matter how rich or poor they are, is given the best possible start in life education wise so they can fulfil their true potential

That should be an absolute given anyway.

The attainment in local state primary schools is way below local private schools in my area. The state schools are graded good not outstanding. No one has a problem with a state school delivering a decent level of education. The problem locally is the value added to each child isn’t enough. Throwing another teacher in there won’t change that!

I've heard Surrey parents on the radio saying that they have been pushed from pillar to post, schools saying that they must ask the local authority about places, and the local authority saying that only the schools know if they have room.
Some parents have found places but will have an hour's drive to take their child in the morning. Others with two children can only find places at opposite ends of the county to each other, making school runs virtually impossible.

vegansrock

ronib I loved my job there. No old bangers there apart from staff vehicles.

That made me smile about cars!
When I was Head I had an old Volvo 740 to drive our children and dogs around the county. My DH had a shiny SLK. On days when prospective parents visited the school I used to borrow the Mercedes to park in the playground to give the right impression to the visitors!

Wyllow3

All these predictions of huge numbers leaving and swamped state schools, and there isn't yet any evidence number wise at all.

Where are the press articles that point in this direction? I can find none - I've checked all the major papers front pages.

Apparetly it is recognised as a problem in Surrey already, and local authorites there have admitted that they don't have enough places for those seeking to enter state schools
bmmagazine.co.uk/news/surrey-runs-out-of-state-school-places-for-private-pupils-as-vat-raid-bites/

GrannyGravy13

All I see on every GN thread regarding private education is

most cannot afford it, those that use private education are rich and can afford to, so it’s no big deal

I look at it differently, by not using the state education system they are saving the state money.

It really does come across as the cliched ^politics of envy^

I can only speak for myself obviously but can I categorically state that my view on private education is not based on envy in any way. I just feel that without the option of private education there would be more pressure on government to make sure that every child, no matter how rich or poor they are, is given the best possible start in life education wise so they can fulfil their true potential.

My GC have been to two different local primary schools. At the first there was a special unit for Autistic children and this seemed to absort any spare cash available within the school. My GC were adopted almost four years ago and have special funding to help with any needs they may have, but when my daughter requested help with maths for the oldest one it was only very grudgingly provided, with help coming from a teacher who said she wasn't very good at maths herself and could only help GD to "get by" at best. For this and other reasons (including bullying) she eventually took them out of the school.
The new school is an entirely different kettle of fish. There are many children for whom English is a second language, some of whom are new to the country. There is no special Autism unit and there seem to be quite a few autistic children with varying needs in the mainstream classes. Most of them have one-to-one helpers, and when we first went to see the school they told us that all the children in the school are continuously assessed and given help if necessary.
We've seen a miraculous change in my GD (9), her reading age has increased to 12 years from 6 years, in two years. Her maths and her confidence have also dramatically improved.
The school clearly makes the most of every penny that they receive and I'm convinced that every child there will achieve as much as they can.
Whilst I'm quite sure there are Autistic children for whom a special school is the best solution, there are certainly many for whom a well-managed mainstream school can work.

GrannyGravy13

All I see on every GN thread regarding private education is

most cannot afford it, those that use private education are rich and can afford to, so it’s no big deal

I look at it differently, by not using the state education system they are saving the state money.

It really does come across as the cliched ^politics of envy^

Several people I know who sent their children to private school were teachers in the state sector.
DS's maths teacher said she only taught at the comprehensive school so that she could afford to send her own DD to private school. She was a hopeless teacher too.

ronib yes I suspect those companies are doing good business. Some will say they can’t afford it any longer, others will scrabble around to pay the extra and others won’t notice an extra £20 out of their pockets. Twas ever thus.

vegansrock you must be aware of companies who help plan for school fees? A lump sum donation from willing grandparents plus monthly or annual payments spread over 18 years in the past made a mind boggling amount almost affordable! I guess these companies are still in business but to add 20 percent on £135k (for 3) - £27k is a bit of a stretch.

Surely most parents made their decisions, especially for GCSE students, at the beginning of the school year in September, which we do have figures for?

All I see on every GN thread regarding private education is

most cannot afford it, those that use private education are rich and can afford to, so it’s no big deal

I look at it differently, by not using the state education system they are saving the state money.

It really does come across as the cliched politics of envy

All these predictions of huge numbers leaving and swamped state schools, and there isn't yet any evidence number wise at all.

Where are the press articles that point in this direction? I can find none - I've checked all the major papers front pages.

ronin £45k would be unaffordable for most people, so those who can’t afford the extra 20% will join the vast majority.

Mollygo

escaped

Yes, Mollygo, but the fees are nominal at say an école privée in France, and the systems can't be compared.
You could say, the UK is elite in this respect!

Not the private schools in France that I experienced. And there was still no VAT.

It depends whether they are sous or hors contrat. Private schools sous contrat cost on average of 400 euros a year at primary level. They benefit from government aid.
I don’t know enough about the other type.

vegansrock well I have known parents with three children going through in top prep schools drive very dubious cars. In fact, one family waited years before buying a proper car. It does happen. Three children at £45k with 20 per cent VAT is completely unaffordable now!

There's a bus here for children who go to the private schools in another town.
They do have to pay, of course but then so do my DGC have to pay for the bus to their state school and college.

ronib I loved my job there. No old bangers there apart from staff vehicles.