Cheer up, Bridget, your lucky day is nigh!

veganstock doesn’t sound as if you had your heart in your job? Did you not notice the pupils whose parents drove old bangers? Were they invisible?

escaped

Yes, Mollygo, but the fees are nominal at say an école privée in France, and the systems can't be compared.
You could say, the UK is elite in this respect!

Not the private schools in France that I experienced. And there was still no VAT.

My DD works at a posh prep school, there was an increase in numbers doing the entrance exam this year. So the idea that hordes of Tarquins and Jemimas are going to be barging their way into those awful rough state schools is a bit previous.
I used to work at a posh independent school. The sixth formers had better cars than the staff. Some kids came to school in chauffeur driven Bentleys. One parent landed a helicopter on the school field to pick up her child. The tiny violins are well and truly polished.

escaped

ronib

petal53 this tax might not go ahead. It’s still up in the air along with the rest of government ….. Lord Pannick has taken on the appeal at a staggering hourly rate.

It has gone ahead as of tomorrow, but if it is deemed to be illegal, the schools will have to refund the parents and recover the money from the government.
A right old mess!

.....^the human right to education means in effect, a right of access to education; no state may lawfully take steps that will inhibit that access. The question for any appeal to the Court would be, does applying VAT to private school fees amount to the state inhibiting and/or restricting access to education, thereby acting in breach of the ECHR.^

It should prove interesting.

Allira

Sago

Amongst our daughters circle of friends there are a number that have shelved the idea of a public/private school as it is now not affordable, the VAT is also on school transport and meals.
Other friends have decided to use state primary schools until age 11.

I think Labour should hold any celebration until they know what the extra burden will cost them in the state sector.

If that applies in the LEA where my DGD go to one of the comprehensive schools it could be interesting.
The two private schools in one town are very popular, as are a couple of the comprehensive schools which are already over-subscribed and pupils travel from out of catchment area to those schools because others have such a poor reputation or for other reasons.

I envisage a lot of competition for places at the popular comprehensives and unhappy parents and their children who fail to get a place.

No different from the current situation.

Yes, Mollygo, but the fees are nominal at say an école privée in France, and the systems can't be compared.
You could say, the UK is elite in this respect!

I think VAT on private school fees is a very badly thought out change, in fact it hasn't been thought through at all for so many reasons, many of which are mentioned above. It's another vote grabbing idea which the LP knew was bound to have gained them popularity amongst a lot of people who resent the fact that they are unable to pay school fees themselves.
Everybody wants the best possible, appropriate education for their children and many parents have struggled and gone without things to pay these fees whereas others may have decided against this and for many it would be a total impossibility. IMO the concentration should be on improving state schools and the calibre of teachers. As it is the state schools, may be swamped with extra pupils when they can barely cope within their current situation. The really wealthy will continue to pay the increased school fees and we will end up with even more of a 2-tier society than we already have.

No other European country imposes VAT on private education. The EU VAT principle of fiscal neutrality prohibits treating similar services differently for VAT purposes.
✔

ronib

petal53 this tax might not go ahead. It’s still up in the air along with the rest of government ….. Lord Pannick has taken on the appeal at a staggering hourly rate.

It has gone ahead as of tomorrow, but if it is deemed to be illegal, the schools will have to refund the parents and recover the money from the government.
A right old mess!

escaped
There is every likelihood . . . might have been made an exception. . .

I think you’re right, and I’m sure an attempt would have been made. However, if I remember correctly, not being able to pick and choose which EU rules we had to follow was one of the reasons that the concept of leaving the EU arose.
I only have experience of France and Germany, but as in the UK, the majority of schools in Europe are free, for example the majority of schools in France and Germany are run by the state and offer free education.
In France and Germany you also have the option of sending your children to fee-paying private schools.
No other European country imposes VAT on private education. The EU VAT principle of fiscal neutrality prohibits treating similar services differently for VAT purposes.

Sorry, the above should be as a quote,
The provision of a supply of services by a profit making company (which includes the provision of education) is a supply for tax purposes, and therefore comes under the scope of vat.
Followed by my comment.

The provision of a supply of services by a profit making company (which includes the provision of education) is a supply for tax purposes, and therefore comes under the scope of vat.
By definition, most independent schools are NOT profit making companies when they are infact charities.

Sago

Amongst our daughters circle of friends there are a number that have shelved the idea of a public/private school as it is now not affordable, the VAT is also on school transport and meals.
Other friends have decided to use state primary schools until age 11.

I think Labour should hold any celebration until they know what the extra burden will cost them in the state sector.

If that applies in the LEA where my DGD go to one of the comprehensive schools it could be interesting.
The two private schools in one town are very popular, as are a couple of the comprehensive schools which are already over-subscribed and pupils travel from out of catchment area to those schools because others have such a poor reputation or for other reasons.

I envisage a lot of competition for places at the popular comprehensives and unhappy parents and their children who fail to get a place.

Whitewavemark2

Mollygo

So do I understand correctly, that if we were still in the EU, the rules would prevent the removal of the tax break for private schools.

So Brexit, which I didn’t vote for, has benefited Labour.

No that is incorrect.

"The Principal VAT Directive 2006/112/EC (PVD) makes it mandatory for EU Member States to implement certain VAT exemptions into domestic law, such as “the provision of children’s or young people’s education, school or university education, vocational training or retraining, including the supply of services and of goods closely related thereto"

So how would you interpret that EU Directive?

petal53

Sago

Amongst our daughters circle of friends there are a number that have shelved the idea of a public/private school as it is now not affordable, the VAT is also on school transport and meals.
Other friends have decided to use state primary schools until age 11.

I think Labour should hold any celebration until they know what the extra burden will cost them in the state sector.

Food is normally VAT free.
To charge VAT on school meals is disgraceful in my opinion.
Most, if not all, other countries do not tax any educational provision. The UK will be one of, if not the only country taxing education.
This tax is not being brought in to improve education generally, it’s simply the politics of envy.

That is also incorrect. The provision of exempt for vat purposes throughout Europe. The provision of a supply of services by a profit making company (which includes the provision of education) is a supply for tax purposes, and therefore comes under the scope of vat.

petal53

Sago

Amongst our daughters circle of friends there are a number that have shelved the idea of a public/private school as it is now not affordable, the VAT is also on school transport and meals.
Other friends have decided to use state primary schools until age 11.

I think Labour should hold any celebration until they know what the extra burden will cost them in the state sector.

Food is normally VAT free.
To charge VAT on school meals is disgraceful in my opinion.
Most, if not all, other countries do not tax any educational provision. The UK will be one of, if not the only country taxing education.
This tax is not being brought in to improve education generally, it’s simply the politics of envy.

Wrong.

Whilst VAT will have to be charged on the fees, the school will be able to recover the VAT incurred on catering

(there are other "recoverable" detailed for schools)

petal53 this tax might not go ahead. It’s still up in the air along with the rest of government ….. Lord Pannick has taken on the appeal at a staggering hourly rate.

Educational provision is not taxed across the EU.
Therefore it seems unlikely that this tax would have been introduced if we were still in the EU.

Mollygo

So do I understand correctly, that if we were still in the EU, the rules would prevent the removal of the tax break for private schools.

So Brexit, which I didn’t vote for, has benefited Labour.

No that is incorrect.

ECHR and Human Rights Act 1998 apply. It is hilarious that GN has prior knowledge of the outcome of the legal challenge which has yet to be decided or even heard!!

Our boys went to a Welsh Medium School in St.Asaph. It was 20 miles from our home, they caught a coach at 7.30 a.m. in town (Conwy) The coach started to pick up other students in Penmaenwar until Aberegele. At the time it was the best Welsh Medium School in Wales.

Sago

Amongst our daughters circle of friends there are a number that have shelved the idea of a public/private school as it is now not affordable, the VAT is also on school transport and meals.
Other friends have decided to use state primary schools until age 11.

I think Labour should hold any celebration until they know what the extra burden will cost them in the state sector.

Food is normally VAT free.
To charge VAT on school meals is disgraceful in my opinion.
Most, if not all, other countries do not tax any educational provision. The UK will be one of, if not the only country taxing education.
This tax is not being brought in to improve education generally, it’s simply the politics of envy.

I recall when GN first discussed it huge numbers of closures in private schools were predicted. This hasn't happened.

"The Daily Telegraph, which opposes the policy, has reported nine private schools closing since May which have cited the change. However, on the decade-long average, about seven schools a month would be expected to close anyway"

www.theguardian.com/education/2024/oct/26/no-rise-private-school-closures-england-since-labour-vat-proposal-data#:~:text=The%20Daily%20Telegraph%2C%20which%20opposes,be%20expected%20to%20close%20anyway.

I cant find any figures of any drop in enrolment for this upcoming term when the VAT is added.

Mollygo

So do I understand correctly, that if we were still in the EU, the rules would prevent the removal of the tax break for private schools.

So Brexit, which I didn’t vote for, has benefited Labour.

Correct.
Education is exempt under EU rules.

However, there is every likelihood that Britain, might have been made an exception on this issue. Our private school system is nothing like Europeans refer to as "private" schools anyway.

Beal High School
bealhighschool.co.uk/about-us/#:~:text=Welcome%20to%20Beal%20High%20School&text=Beal%20is%20a%20mixed%2C%20community,800%20in%20the%20Sixth%20Form.