Southport stabbings - sentencing

nanna8

People are not normally sent to jail for just saying or tweeting things in civilised countries.

Tweeting is a fairly new thing and imo the law has to keep up with new things especially things that incite violence using lies and misinformation.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

I hate to say it, but there are a number of people here who seem to condone prisoner on prisoner attacks. All violent acts are wrong whether in prison or in the outside world, and the perpetrators should be punished. Lynch mobs or the equivalent are not the answer.

And yet you seem to think that it was wrong to imprison people who attacked a hotel housing immigrants during the Southport riots? Why are some acts of violence acceptable to you but others aren’t?

No one was put into prison for less than actual death threats or for strong and direct actual incitement to violence, often with strong racial hatred overtones. Most people are in prison for actually taking part in violent rioting.

I think it particularly disgusting that on the very evening of some of the most the most tragic and distressing events our country has known in Southport, violent thugs turned up in that very place.

Barleyfields

I don’t want to derail the thread but it occurred to me that this youth (I find it difficult to know what to call him) obviously had use of a credit/debit card if he bought online not only a knife but the ingredients for the ricin he made. I haven’t read anything about him having a job so unless I have missed that, he must have been either receiving benefits or money from his parents. Or might he have access to his mother’s or father’s cards? If the latter, I wonder how the ricin ingredients purchase would show up on a statement?

The ingredient for ricin is Caster oil beans, which have many benign uses and therefore not hard to buy. He bought enough beans in 2022 (this info is from the Daily Mail yesterday) to endanger 12.500 which is mentioned upthread here.

But the DM also reported that he had only processed a very small amount, and had not finished the process. it was judged by experts to be "low risk".

So buying the beans was not a red flag issue.

I also wondered how this person funded buying things from Amazon, when it hasn’t been reported that he ever had a job. Perhaps his parents allowed him access to their credit cards? Perhaps he was claiming benefits? Whatever, he had access to money, and he wasn’t using it to buy food, but instead to buy machetes and knives, arrows, and other implements, and the ingredients to make deadly poison. If he didn’t buy the knives and machetes, who did? We know he bought things from Amazon regularly because the neighbours apparently complained that he had them delivered to their houses rather than his own, and one neighbour apparently complained to his father about this and asked him to get it stopped.

I wonder what the parents thought about him collecting knives and machetes? What did they know and do about it? I know they called the police sometimes but that was to deal with specific incidents. What did they do about the collection of knives and other weapons?

How, though, did he finance and carry out his purchases? I am thinking of the extent of the parents’ knowledge and enablement. What possible legitimate excuse could he have given for his purchases?

MayBee70

nanna8

People are not normally sent to jail for just saying or tweeting things in civilised countries.

Tweeting is a fairly new thing and imo the law has to keep up with new things especially things that incite violence using lies and misinformation.

If that's the case then Starmer should be joining them, lies do not a criminal make, neither does misinformation. Well only in this country it seems.

The only rule by tweet I can think of by a leader is Trump's endless nightly streams of part invention, part threat, and part sheer nonsense (drink disinfectant! Cure for covid!)

His parents were complicit.

There are so many questions.

Did they work?
Why did they leave Rwanda.
Had there been social services intervention?
Who granted them asylum and on what grounds?
Why did they leave Cardiff?

Another one we have taken in that hate us.

We didn’t take him in, he was born here.

nanna8

People are not normally sent to jail for just saying or tweeting things in civilised countries.

You're right that freedom of expression is a fundamental value in many/most civilised countries. In the UK it is limited by law so that expressions cannot be made in respect of propaganda for war, provocation of imminent violence, or hate speech based on race, ethnicity, gender or religion that incites other to cause harm. This applies to wherever and however that expression is made.

It's a challenging balance between maintaining public order and protecting individual rights, and each situation will be evaluated differently based on its specific circumstances.

Personally, I expect my countries laws to balance freedom of expression and statements that provoke people to break the law.

Freya5

MayBee70

nanna8

People are not normally sent to jail for just saying or tweeting things in civilised countries.

Tweeting is a fairly new thing and imo the law has to keep up with new things especially things that incite violence using lies and misinformation.

If that's the case then Starmer should be joining them, lies do not a criminal make, neither does misinformation. Well only in this country it seems.

Unless you have actual proof I would be really aware of the laws concerning deformation and slander. Could you actually prove what you posted if you have to?

He had been buying and threatening with knives since he was a young teenager and had taken a knife into school at least ten times. He had been reported to the police and other authorities abd by his parents too.
Why did his parents allow such weapons to be in the house and why did hos mother sign for one as he was under-age to be able to receive one?

The man in Bristol who drove three teenagers to a location in order for them to murder two young innocent boys was given 38 years in prison despite protesting his innocence, quite rightly.

These parents might have contacted the police but in truth they enabled their son and should be investigated.

I'm absolutely sure the parents have been very closely questioned indeed by the police.

The crucial question seems to be, did they inform the police in one of their many contacts with them of the knives at home, and if they did, what was the outcome.

I'm not inclined to go on a witch hunt without knowing more.

They certainly cant be blamed for what was going round Rudakubana's head, a mass murder attack. It appears that when his father stopped him going out it was concerns about an attack on an individual.

I believe his father stopped a taxi from taking him to the school which excluded him (one can but speculate on his intentions). Next time, he cunningly ordered a taxi after leaving home.

As I have already said, there is much we don’t know about his parents’ knowledge and enablement but I have no doubt that more will become known in time.

Another one we have taken in that hate us

Allsorts what, ‘taken in’ from Wales???

🤣🤣🤣. Well done LizzieDrip!

A few comments on him being 'Welsh'. He is not 'Welsh'! People saying he is are being ridiculous! Allsorts - I agree!

love0c

A few comments on him being 'Welsh'. He is not 'Welsh'! People saying he is are being ridiculous! Allsorts - I agree!

He was born in Wales, therefore he is Welsh, the same as Suella Braverman, Pritti Patel and others were born in the UK and were thus able to become government ministers.

Exactly. It may be uncomfortable for some to accept, but he was Welsh.

That some people will not accept that this young man is Welsh (or British) despite the fact he was born in Wales, tells us a great deal about those people.

He's British.

Yep, he was born here in Britain, therefore that makes him British.

Being Welsh is slightly different.

I'll await the brickbats. 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿