Want to understand what Trump is doing?

PoliticsNerd

ronib

Without getting too agitated, have we not experienced in the UK examples of the judicial system overturning or overruling/overriding political decisions? I am not suggesting that Trump is in anyway saintly but he did say from the beginning that he wanted change and the voters have endorsed him. There seems a lot of angst around Woke ideology for example and Trump seems to be tackling it head on.

The only example I can think of that compares is the Supreme Court's ruling on the prorogation of Parliament. That was significant in that it reaffirmed sovereignty and therefore the nations right to democracy.

If you believe that wanting change equals destroying democracy then your ideology is extreme. I doubt any facts or descriptions of the rules that maintain that democracy would make any difference to your thinking. Nor would those arguments change the actions of those who also think the destruction of a democracy, which has been evolving here since the late 17th Century, is simply a "change" that any dictator should be able to force on us.

There was the ruling in 2017(?) that prevented Theresa May from activating A50 without the consent of Parliament. There have been a number of judicial reviews since than which have concluded that the government had acted unlawfully. And wouldn't tribunals which overturn government decisions, say on asylum seekers, count?

A government can try to effect 'change' either legally through the Legislature (Parliament) or illegally by, ultimately, the use of force. The second method is completely undemocratic and tyrannical. We chopped a King's head off for trying that...

I wish a course on politics and the constitution was obligatory in schools (subject to teachers understanding it, of course).

There's nothing like the internet for spreading codswallop...

I don’t hold any particular beliefs PoliticsNerd but am aware of how very difficult it is for advanced industrial societies to bring about real social change. It won’t be easy for Trump to undo existing dogma and the bureaucracy may well win out in the end. If that’s any consolation for all the Democrats on this thread.

I am hearing and reading a lot of conversations that confirm what iamaround has posted - namely that the USA is completely divided and that if Trump continues to challenge the courts and constitution it will end up at the very least unrest and very worse civil war.

The difference between USA and Germany in the 30s is that German was not a divided society, and Hitler did what he did with almost no opposition, that is not true of Trump.

ronib

Without getting too agitated, have we not experienced in the UK examples of the judicial system overturning or overruling/overriding political decisions? I am not suggesting that Trump is in anyway saintly but he did say from the beginning that he wanted change and the voters have endorsed him. There seems a lot of angst around Woke ideology for example and Trump seems to be tackling it head on.

The only example I can think of that compares is the Supreme Court's ruling on the prorogation of Parliament. That was significant in that it reaffirmed sovereignty and therefore the nations right to democracy.

If you believe that wanting change equals destroying democracy then your ideology is extreme. I doubt any facts or descriptions of the rules that maintain that democracy would make any difference to your thinking. Nor would those arguments change the actions of those who also think the destruction of a democracy, which has been evolving here since the late 17th Century, is simply a "change" that any dictator should be able to force on us.

. We might not like his style or policies but for energy and foresight he is astonishing

He certainly is. And have you seen the White House Press Secretary, Karoline Leavitt? She's only 27. Has a young baby. Sounds possibly too young for the job etc etc

She's absolutely incredible.

But as we all remember, life doesn’t always work out as expected - the Rwandan Act was passed and just didn’t happen. I imagine that Trump, as a very seasoned politician, will try to drum his agenda through from the beginning of his presidency. We might not like his style or policies but for energy and foresight he is astonishing.

It doesn't matter if it is one judge or 100, David. If Trump ignores the court order, which is based on Federal Law, he is breaking the law. Federal Law applies to the whole of the USA, not just the jurisdiction the judge is working in.

I think you've made your position absolutely clear.

ronib

Grandmabatty The points about any government and bureaucracy apply regardless of country and individual players. So seems to me that the power struggle between say Sunak and his Rwandan scheme are in the same place as Trump’s at the moment. It’s not personal.

If the government want s to change a law they do it by putting a bill through parliament, the legislative body and getting it passed. It is Parliament that represents the 'will of the people'(dreadful phrase) not the President or the PM. Parliament is free to block any bill if it feels that it is not for the good of the country. Parliament makes the law, not the government.

Of course, Parliament is most likely to pass government bills because the government has a majority of seats, but the principle remains. Parliament can, of course, call for a vote of no confidence, or vote against a bill, it is not obliged to respect the government's 'mandate'.

Once a bill becomes law it is the job of the judiciary to make judgements based on that law and existing law. If the judgements inconvenience the government then so be it.

It is the job of the civil service to implement the directions of the government within the framework of the law.

Also, if the country is signed up to international laws, treaties etc. it can be challenged on the legality of its actions if they contravene the law or treaties.

No-one in the country is above the law. It applies to everyone.

Once we lose the Rule of Law all hell lets loose.

The situation is that one Democrat district judge has ruled that the President cannot freeze spending, Trump is not held in contempt of court nor is any penalty mentioned, it’s just one judges opinion of what Trump can do.

We are a long way from the Supreme Court or Congress reversing his actions, in fact Republican dominated congress are backing him on the cost cutting initiative.
Not all programmes have been frozen, several, including Social Security and Medicare are not affected, likely military spending as well, any reduction in staffing levels are to be within the Labour laws. Understandably the democrats don’t like their liberal programmes stopped, he’s in charge now and intends to change things quickly.

Hmm. Ronib. Imaround posted lots of information about what's actually going on that would suggest Trump and Musk are being very personal regarding the right of women.

Grandmabatty The points about any government and bureaucracy apply regardless of country and individual players. So seems to me that the power struggle between say Sunak and his Rwandan scheme are in the same place as Trump’s at the moment. It’s not personal.

To put it simply Ronib when Johnson tried to prorogue parliament, the courts ruled it as illegal and Johnson didn't follow through. In the US, Trump is issuing executive orders that the courts are rulings are illegal and Trump is ignoring them. That is basically the problem in the US.

Ronib, this thread is about Trump, not UK. I look at your posts as downplaying Trump and Musk's executive orders and an attempt to divert attention away from them. Start your own thread about Starmer etc if you feel strongly enough.

The judiciary here has just extended the Ukrainian Visa Scheme to include Palestinians- breaking news.

Without getting too agitated, have we not experienced in the UK examples of the judicial system overturning or overruling/overriding political decisions? I am not suggesting that Trump is in anyway saintly but he did say from the beginning that he wanted change and the voters have endorsed him. There seems a lot of angst around Woke ideology for example and Trump seems to be tackling it head on.

Nurseries and Early Years settings use paper plates as the foundation for children's art works.. I think paper straws are often involved, too.

Do you think they should be warned of the hazardous nature of these materials?

Or should we call for a ban on their use?

Off to check the kitchen cupboards for potentially explosive objects..

imaround

The courts have just ruled that Trump is required to unfreeze federal spending money. He was ordered to do so last week, but so far has not.

This is important to watch and will be a clue of what happens going forward.

If he ignores the court order, which is what people think will happen, we then officially have a lawless dictator who will need to be removed.

If he does comply, he will have lost his momentum and upper hand. It will show that he can can be reigned in.

He has caved in tariffs already. We will see.

David, I refer you back to this post from imaround on Monday of this week.

Courts have ruled that Trump has broken the law by the imposition of a freeze on federal payments.

I now refer you back to my question. 'Do you think that breaking the law (of the land) is justified in order to fulfil a mandate?'

Your responses have not answered the question.

I can only imply that your silence indicates agreement with his law breaking.

Oh GrannyGravy13 surely you've been to a picnic when the paper plates and straws start exploding! It's enormous fun, everyone has a riproaring time.

But first you have to go through a portal into an alternative universe. Taking LSD helps too.

(No, me neither!)

GG sadly it wasn’t your medication … it was real!!!

I caught the tale end of a press conference from the Oval Office this morning.

Elon Musk had one of his sons on his shoulders, and POTUS was talking about exploding paper plates and straws. Along with eulogising that sharks wouldn’t eat plastic straws whilst chomping their way through the oceans

All very surreal, was it my medication or was this for real?

I second that!

iamaround your posts tell us so much more than we’re hearing from the UK Murdoch media. You tell us, first hand, what it’s like to be living through the Trump / Musk nightmare.

Please keep posting

David49

MaizieD

So you think it’s OK for government to be inefficient,

What a shocking response to my post, David.

My question was ‘is a government justified in breaking the law to fulfil its mandate?’

You clearly think that it is.

What is more, you seem to equate abiding by the law with inefficiency.

I can’t find the words to express what I feel about people who subscribe to such a belief.

Perhaps you had better be specific and state how he or Musk is going to break any particular US law, I don’t know the US system but in the UK employees can be sacked for many reasons, some require compensation, some a redundancy payment, the courts decide.

As I posted previously I expect any employment rights to be respected. That’s not going to mean a place for all in the UK or US.

Have you not read this thread🙄🙄🙄

nanna8

It is easy to criticise Trump from our lounge rooms but if you live in the USA things might be very different. He had a massive win and I always thought that wouldn’t be so good for Europeans and the rest of the world. If you live there you might see things differently. Perhaps we should not judge. Similarly I criticise Starmer and think he is a dreadful PM but I am going by what I hear, not lived experience. Perhaps he is a lovely, warm and compassionate man ??

😄😄 at least you have the grace to admit that you don’t speak from experience only your bias.

Well done!

Keep on posting iamaround, some people don't quite get it, but many of us do, have family in USA and are very concerned.