Next step in overriding female rights!

I'm sure this man will soon be struck off. A doctor who does not have a basic knowledge of human anatomy is not someone any patient would have faith in.

grannydarkhair

Cossy How competent would you judge a Dr to be if he said that biological sex is “a nebulous concept” and yet he is categorical that he is a biological woman? How does he know? If it’s, as he claims, he feels like a woman then what he’s saying is that feelings over-ride facts.
Surely you agree that human biology is factual, not just a concept. And as others have mentioned, certain illnesses/diseases present differently in women and men. How will Dr U know how to treat patients if he’s unable to sex them correctly?
I can guarantee that he didn’t pass any medical exams by writing twaddle like that. I’m not sure when he qualified/left Dundee University but I’m sure that I’m correct in saying that DU have never/are not teaching that.

I would be horrified!

Grandmabatty

There was access to another changing room which he refused to use. It did not have a toilet as far as I'm aware, so would have been unsuitable for someone bleeding heavily as the nurse was. Fife NHS aren't covering themselves in glory so far. The doctor was asked what happened but the nurse wasn't? They blindsided her with a suspension meeting, having not discussed the situation with her previously.

That’s sounds incredibly unfair and discrimination towards this nurse.

There was access to another changing room which he refused to use. It did not have a toilet as far as I'm aware, so would have been unsuitable for someone bleeding heavily as the nurse was. Fife NHS aren't covering themselves in glory so far. The doctor was asked what happened but the nurse wasn't? They blindsided her with a suspension meeting, having not discussed the situation with her previously.

In this morning's evidence, the tribunal has been told that the NHS Trust's code of conduct states that one should not 'impose one's views on others' and this was partly what led to Sandie Peggie being suspended. But what was Dr Upton doing if not imposing their views on others? One rule for her, another for Dr Upton, it would seem.

I would agree Beth Upton is biologically male, dictated by their genes. I think ideally single cubicles should be used for changing but obviously it will take time and money for this to happen.

For me the issue is substantially about Beth Upton's character and specific views. Instead of entering a situation which is bound to be difficult with tact and thoughtfulness, and not respecting the views of the nurses, changing elsewhere, its just brought confrontation and made it more difficult for transpeople to be accepted. It could have been very different.

In addition she's pushing the view that people can biologically change sex, which they cant, as opposed to changing gender. The trans women I know accept its not "biological", its social.

Thanks Rosie51
I wonder if anyone is as willing to accept the lie from an untrained person that I’m a doctor as they are to accept the lie that a male is female?

While I'll accept that surgical adaptations and hormone treatment show a level of personal commitment, neither actually reduce a man's stature nor overall strength, and certainly not his sex. You're still left with a male in the female area, which in a supposedly single sex space turns it into a mixed sex space. At this point why keep any males at all out? Important to note that Beth Upton's only 'adaptation' is to utter the magic words, and name change to Beth. Health authorities, who you'd think would absolutely be aware there are two distinct sexes and it's impossible to change from one to the other, seem to be captured by the ideology and say to use whichever room aligns with your 'gender identity'. Presumably the non-binary and gender fluid could be swapping between male and female ones at will.

A doctor in a female changing room did happen. It was allowed for trans women to use the changing room.

Some posters have said it would be alright if the man had undergone gender reassignment but how would you know and tbh even if I knew I would still not want to be getting changed in the same room as a man.

Deedaa

After reading Keepingquiet's comment it strikes me that in all the years I sat with my husband in hospital it never looked as if the doctors and nurses all changed together. Apart from female nurses not wanting male doctors to see them naked (I am reminded of a midwife friend who refused to have her baby in hospital because she didn't want the consultant to see her "like that") it's surely a chance for nurses to exchange a few remarks about their day. It would be difficult to start a "Did you hear what that doctor said?" conversation if that doctor was likely to walk in.

I was never naked in a changing room in 25 years in the NHS- neither did I see anyone else naked.

The uniform went on over your underwear, and took a matter of seconds.

So, yes there may have been a bit of chatting and either gossip, but most of us just wanted to get to work at the start of the day, and then get off home at the end.

I really don't understand what a doctor was doing in the nurses changing rooms in the first place.

Watching NHS live today to see if I can spot a doctor and what clothes they are wearing!

Read or watch on utube Dr Az Hakeem for an in depth explanation of why men behave like this.

I know doodle and myself disagree on this, I dont care what men do to their body, or what they 'feel', if they are in womens spaces when they know women dont consent, then in my view they are a predatory man.

I hear what you say Doodledog but my concern is how does the woman know if the transwoman has actually transitioned completely?

The national Federation of WIs wrote to me about my concerns that the WI has accepted transwomen without a vote of the full membership and told me that they accept transwomen who haven’t yet fully transitioned.

I am always keen to read your replies as you are imo the voice of sanity on GN.

After reading Keepingquiet's comment it strikes me that in all the years I sat with my husband in hospital it never looked as if the doctors and nurses all changed together. Apart from female nurses not wanting male doctors to see them naked (I am reminded of a midwife friend who refused to have her baby in hospital because she didn't want the consultant to see her "like that") it's surely a chance for nurses to exchange a few remarks about their day. It would be difficult to start a "Did you hear what that doctor said?" conversation if that doctor was likely to walk in.

If I was bleeding profusely and panicking over that and I asked if the doctor or nurse was female (more likely the way things are going), then I would expect a truthful answer.

NanKate

Professor Robert Winston has called gender-affirming surgery ‘mutilation’ and has said that “we can remove bits of the body and change our shape and so on but you can’t change your sex because it is embedded in your genes in every cell of your body”.

Well if it is good enough for Professor Winston it is good enough for me!

Yes, I agree. A man can never be a woman, but (again, speaking for myself) I think a surgically and hormonally altered man is far less likely to be a threat to women than an intact man.

I think Grandmabatty’s assessment of that ‘doctor’ is spot on.

JenniferEccles

mumofmadboys am I correct in thinking you are a retired GP?

If so, how do you feel about this male doctor claiming he is biologically female?

This statement is puzzling too:

Upton told the tribunal: “The term biologically female or biologically male is completely nebulous. It has no defined or agreed meaning in science, as far as I’m aware.

“I’m not a robot, so I am biological and my identity is female. Without wanting to appeal to the dictionary too much, I’m biologically female.”

Upton has stated that he is not an obstetrician. That would seem to be obvious. Nor too versed in logic either!

Cossy

I’m on the fence here. If I was bleeding profusely from anywhere I wouldn’t care who treated me so long as they were qualified.

I’d judge the doctor by their treatment and competency, I couldn’t care less if he/she was black, white, pink, gay, straight, male, female or trans.

Me neither if I was bleeding profusely from a cut or from my nose, as long as they were qualified.

But if I was bleeding profusely from the vagina I would like to be seen by a doctor who might just realise what a vagina is and that I have one because I am a biological woman.
Obviously this doctor is not well qualified enough to know the difference so I would assume he is not qualified and would not want him to deal with even a nose bleed or cut on my head.

Wyllow3

HousePlantQueen

It is the hypocrisy of claiming discrimination/hurt feelings or whatever when the female nurse felt uncomfortable, but not acknowledging the feelings of said nurse. If you see what I am trying to say. Like others, if I was an emergency admission, the race or gender of the attending medical staff would nor be my first concern, but the one sided entitlement for consideration angers me

I do see, and that s what concerns me, not the being transgender.

In the link I posted Re the court case this argument was the crux of case.
In their race for inclusiveness the rights of the claimant were ignored.
Only the person who insisted being addressed by their chosen pro noun had rights.
Disappearing up their own backside springs to mind 🤦🏼‍♀️

mumofmadboys am I correct in thinking you are a retired GP?

If so, how do you feel about this male doctor claiming he is biologically female?

From what I have read this is not an issue about what the doctor has done in a clinical setting.

It is apparently to do with incidents of harrassment in a changing room.

As a former nurse I don't ever remember doctors changing in the same space as nurses. Mostly doctors didn't change at all, because they wore their own clothes under their white coats, or not even white coats, depending on the setting.

So I am a little bemused as to why the doctor was 'changing' at all- unless the protocol has changed since Covid- although I was in hospital post-Covid and never saw a doctor in anything other than their own clothes (except obviously in a surgical setting, which I don't know applies here?).

charley68 They’re not the same ear-rings, when you see photos of both pairs side-by-side, it’s easy to see the differences.

When Sandie Peggie (the nurse in question) told Dr Upton she was uncomfortable with him being in the changing room with her, he claimed to be upset by this. Yet on another occasion, when she left the room, he also claimed that this upset him too. She was damned if she did, damned if she didn't. Make no mistake, this is all about his 'entitlement' - throughout the whole tribunal, he has shown not one ounce of compassion or empathy whatsoever.