Next step in overriding female rights!

Galaxy

I actually think left and right are becoming meaningless, the progressives ( the woke for want of a better word) hold none of the values that I recognise as 'left'. They either ignore class totally or often favour the middle class over the working class.

I agree. The LP has more graduates and professionals as members than any other party, which is fine (I have no issues with so-called 'champagne socialism') but the membership includes those who have no experience of or empathy with the working class who founded the party (or for whom it was founded, depending on your perspective). They mock Brexiteers, and call those who might lose their job to a cheaper immigrant racist from the safety of a secure career, and bang on about how too many people go to university when they and their children have done well out of doing just that, and/or they have contacts who can help and the advantage of knowing how to 'fit in' as a result of their education that many haven't learnt. It's ok for other people's children to take their chances, though. It's not really a concern for fairness (which IMO is the basis of socialism) but self-interest.

I think it's that sort of thing that pushes people towards Right Wing parties like Reform, coupled with the sheer unfairness of life just now. Someone working long hours on insecure contracts and on one hand having to then give most of it away to a landlord who bought a council house and now rents it out, and on the other seeing a neighbour who doesn't work so gets his rent paid has a right to feel aggrieved. So does someone who has saved into a pension only to find they only get marginally more than the SP, but their friend who didn't save gets PC and everything that goes with it. Same with people who have to sell their home to get social care and find the money is used to subsidise the person in the room next door. At the same time, services are being cut, people can't get medical appointments and everything costs a fortune.

Being resentful of all that doesn't make someone Right Wing - it just makes them resentful, and therefore vulnerable to simplistic appeals from the Right.

Mollygo

Claiming to be a woman when he isn’t. Despite all the fluffing around with gender claims, women are adult human females. Men and trans women are not.
Lying by word or action is a lie. Claiming that sex is nebulous is also a lie.

Upton is not so much lying about the immutability of biological sex - she is denying it as a scientific fact (according to most scientific understanding).

We know there's 'wiggle room' and it's not completely without exception due to a very small % not fitting the sex binary.

I know the dictionary definition of "nebulous" but not what Upton means by it in this instance... expanding that small percentage to throw biological sex out of the window? Who knows.

Anyway, I don't believe the case should rest on the 'gender /sex argument' because sex is a protected characteristic, but so is gender...

Did Peggie discriminate against Upton because she waited outside the changing room for the doctor to leave before entering? Or when she called Upton a man whom she felt intimidated by - being in the same changing room?

Also, the allegation (by Upton) that Peggie removed herself from the resus room - presumably when a patient was being treated. Does the doctor now want that investigated - two months or so after the event?

This is surely what's important - do Upton's views on 'nebulous' biological sex count in this? I don't think they should. But, if they do in this instance - where does that leave women?

Every time Upton filled in a form for laboratory tests on a patient sample he would have indicated whether the person was male or female sex. You have to wonder how on earth he managed that given that he says biological sex is a nebulous, undefined thing. Did he ask each and every patient what their sex was, and how would he deal with an unconscious patient?

Spot on, Mollygo. To claim that biological sex is merely a 'nebulous concept' is a lie - and that's just one example.

Claiming to be a woman when he isn’t. Despite all the fluffing around with gender claims, women are adult human females. Men and trans women are not.
Lying by word or action is a lie. Claiming that sex is nebulous is also a lie.

Could you explain to me what " lying about biological facts" means to you please Mollygo.

PoliticsNerd

And ...?

And . . . ?

Sadly, there are still both male and evidently female supporters for male entitlement even when it includes lying about biological facts, ignoring the rights of the very people TIM fantasise about being.

And. . . as I’ve mentioned before, contributing to the public perception that all TIM are like that.

And ...?

Galaxy

It is Male entitlement.

I’d like the Judge to demand this doctor removes his skirt and under garments in court then I think we’d see more than his male entitlement.
A doctor who believes a man can be a women merely by wishing it should be removed from the register.

And?

eazybee

I would use the term 'extreme' if it were applicable, as in Dr Upton holds extreme views about sex as opposed to gender.
I don't like people being labelled right, left, centrist or far anything; most people hold a wide range of views about different things.
And never 'the working class'! Haven't you noticed?
It is 'working people' now.

Extreme ideological views (extremism) are characterised by a refusal to acknowledge the existence or validity of opposing perspectives.

Extremist behaviour employs violence to achieve ideological objectives. This includes acts of terrorism, politically motivated violence, and communal violence. However, it evolves from range of lesser but still extreme behaviours, from verbal abuse and the denial of opportunities for rational discourse to physical assault. The ultimate extreme is the violent undermining of democratic principles and democracy itself.

Which begs the obvious question...

Sure does, especially as he can't pin down the date, patient involved or anyone else who can corroborate this story. Funny that eh?

Rosie51

Thanks for that information on the delay. It explains it.

Upton's quotes are something else aren't they!

nobody can accurately or usefully define biological sex

Well I think they can and have. Of course, it may not be a 'useful' definition to a man who insists that because he identifies as a woman, he is one.

But, there's more to this case isn't there? Upton has alleged that Peggie refused to help treat a patient in resus due to her presence in the room.

A rather serious allegation that one would assume should have been reported immediately - but, the incident was not reported until after the row on Christmas Eve. The incident apparently took place in October.

Which begs the obvious question...

Galaxy

I actually think left and right are becoming meaningless, the progressives ( the woke for want of a better word) hold none of the values that I recognise as 'left'. They either ignore class totally or often favour the middle class over the working class.

Yup

Thank you Doodledog.

Yes, I've heard the Right (and Left) spoken of pejoratively, but being somewhat 'centrist', I don't feel totally alienated from either so when I use the terminology, I am not denigrating either side of the political divide.

Perhaps we should use the word "extremist" - but then of course someone will question what I mean by extremism - "do you mean those whose views you don't agree with" kind of thing!

Like others on GN, I have friends who are Tory voters and others who aren't, and we debate and argue but I value their opinions as much as I value my own. Anyway, there's things on which we all agree, so...

Just wanted to make that clear.

I would use the term 'extreme' if it were applicable, as in Dr Upton holds extreme views about sex as opposed to gender.
I don't like people being labelled right, left, centrist or far anything; most people hold a wide range of views about different things.
And never 'the working class'! Haven't you noticed?
It is 'working people' now.

I actually think left and right are becoming meaningless, the progressives ( the woke for want of a better word) hold none of the values that I recognise as 'left'. They either ignore class totally or often favour the middle class over the working class.

eazybee

The term 'Right' is being used increasingly in a pejorative sense, as is the term 'far-right,' Better not to use it at all, I would think.

PS

The term 'Right' is being used increasingly in a pejorative sense,

But not by me.

eazybee

The term 'Right' is being used increasingly in a pejorative sense, as is the term 'far-right,' Better not to use it at all, I would think.

This is why language is so important. When people start misusing it, it becomes increasingly difficult to have a meaningful conversation. This is why what used to be simple words such as 'men', 'women', 'he' and 'she', 'him' and 'her', or 'mother' are so hotly contested. TRAs want to control the debate, and shifting the meanings to words lets them do it.

I have long said on here that many people use 'right' and 'left' in rather strange ways. Both 'sides' tend to use the one they aren't on as an insult, but miss the point that there is a lot more to it than simple voting intention.

I knew exactly what Dickens meant though. Idiotic cases like this are a gift to the sort of people who don't like not being 'allowed' to use racial slurs, who refer to calls to murder people in asylum hostels as 'hurty words', who organise riots, and throw bricks at riot police who defend those hostels or the property of people with brown faces. Those people are far-right, aren't they? They are not the same as decent people who happen to vote Conservative.

eazybee

The term 'Right' is being used increasingly in a pejorative sense, as is the term 'far-right,' Better not to use it at all, I would think.

... so what do you suggest for those who are at the extreme ends of either right or left, because they do exist?

Is it any wonder that more women don't complain in these sorts of circumstances, which is used as an argument that 'nobody else cares'? I admire Sandie Peggie's immense courage and fortitude, but I honestly don't think I could bear the pressure she's under.

I would not like to be treated by a doctor who doesn't recognise the difference between men and women. . I am used to being treated by men or women.

The term 'Right' is being used increasingly in a pejorative sense, as is the term 'far-right,' Better not to use it at all, I would think.

All the feminists i know view woke as code for misogyny, authoritarianism, etc. I am afraid the culture war started by people trying to get others to pretend sex isnt a reality.

eazybee

^You know the worst aspect of this? It's a gift to the conservative Right.^

I cannot see how the worse aspect of this ridiculous case is a gift to the conservative right.

The far-right then - but the meaning of 'far-right' has been called into question on GN so I hesitated to use it.

... those who've declared a 'war-on-woke' and who include anyone who's even slightly left-leaning in that category, along with the transgender community, 'progressives', feminists, you-name-it - they use it as political ammunition to stoke division.