Well if Labour keep this up I think I’ll be voting for them at the next GE!

Anneliese Dodds has stepped down from her Ministerial role over Keir Starmer’s decision to cut aid budget to (his words) put the money into defence instead.

I disagree with her stance but admire her for putting her money where her mouth is as she steps down to the backbenches. A rare show of moral probity. Well done Ms Dodds for having the courage of your convictions.

Another plus (for me) regards Labour.

I’m one of those people Galaxy refers to, who was paid a salary to attempt to support families where it was often 4 generations since any member of the family went out to work. The experience confirmed how tough life is for those with mental or physical health problems.
I did tire of being told “‘working’s a mugs game”. Often the children in these families were largely out of education by year 9. The absence of routines or active parents …….

I was, and continue to be, ‘the depressed’ glasshalffullagain. Clinically depressed, but with a serious work ethic.

Barleyfields

Work gives you a reason to get out of bed if you’re in a bad place. From that pov it’s good for MH, gives a structure to the day and some self esteem. I speak from experience.

True, for some people.

They are easy targets aren't they, the poor, the vulnerable, the depressed, those in chronic pain.

Doodledog

Also, I am the one who said that I don't equate work with good MH. I think there are many jobs where the reverse is probably true - in fact I think that many who say that work is good in and of itself are those in satisfying jobs that give them validation.

As I said earlier, if you bothered to read my posts instead of shooting from the hip, you might understand what I'm saying, even if the thought that someone on the Internet disagrees with you is difficult.

I think you make a good point here, it makes all the difference in the world if work is fulfilling and rewarding. dd2 loves her work so much she misses it when on holiday.

I do generally equate work with all sorts of positive things and am quite happy to stand by it.
It may be very boring but the things that equate to good mental health tend to be quite 'worthy'. Community, exercise, contribution to society, etc etc.
I am afraid I think the idea that not working (for your whole life) is a good thing falls into the 'luxury belief category.

Work gives you a reason to get out of bed if you’re in a bad place. From that pov it’s good for MH, gives a structure to the day and some self esteem. I speak from experience.

Also, I am the one who said that I don't equate work with good MH. I think there are many jobs where the reverse is probably true - in fact I think that many who say that work is good in and of itself are those in satisfying jobs that give them validation.

As I said earlier, if you bothered to read my posts instead of shooting from the hip, you might understand what I'm saying, even if the thought that someone on the Internet disagrees with you is difficult.

Agreed Doodledog. And PN, I assume you have heard of contraception, which enables one to control the period over which children are born (or not) pretty accurately? Certainly worked well for me.

Withdrawn by GNHQ - quotes a deleted post.

Norah

Galaxy But yes I think people need to work because I mostly think what happens is those who dont live lives of chaos

How would someone not working possibly be chaotic?

It’s not compulsory but I know some that make chaos and uselessness an art form

Galaxy But yes I think people need to work because I mostly think what happens is those who dont live lives of chaos

How would someone not working possibly be chaotic?

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Galaxy

I suppose it is people who have never been on the ladder that I am thinking of, those for whom the ladder may as well be on the moon.
I suppose I also dont think people have to always want to 'progress', as we saw in covid many of the jobs which were vital to society's functioning were the non progression type
I think we should be paying decent wages and address the horrendous housing situation ( which to give her credit I think Rayner is quietly and with some level of efficiency getting on with, according to the housing bods I know).
But yes I think people need to work because I mostly think what happens is those who dont live lives of chaos, which ends up providing careers for the middle class who support them in a variety of ways!

I suppose it is people who have never been on the ladder that I am thinking of, those for whom the ladder may as well be on the moon.

That's something else - and something I can't quite comprehend. I know it's very nice as a retiree to get up in the morning and know that your time is your own and you are free to do those things that interest you (though as a full-time carer for my disabled partner that time for me is somewhat limited!) - but that's quite a different thing to being young and having the energy of youth, or comparative youth, and doing... well, what?... with your life?! I wonder what the structure is (excluding those obviously who are disabled) of a life intentionally perhaps, devoid of a commitment to work?

I think we should be paying decent wages and address the horrendous housing situation ...

Wholeheartedly agree, having had the benefit of decent housing and wages, and the security that gives you.

I can understand someone deciding they were not going to work if they were determined to re-invent the wheel or explore the outer reaches of some unknown territory that no-one had ever heard of - if they were on a mission, they would be doing something with an end point - but even then, they'd need funding... but to simply drift through life. It's not something I can understand.

Do you think those who don't work just live chaotic lives? It's not something I've really thought about. And I don't know anyone in this situation.

I suppose it is people who have never been on the ladder that I am thinking of, those for whom the ladder may as well be on the moon.
I suppose I also dont think people have to always want to 'progress', as we saw in covid many of the jobs which were vital to society's functioning were the non progression type
I think we should be paying decent wages and address the horrendous housing situation ( which to give her credit I think Rayner is quietly and with some level of efficiency getting on with, according to the housing bods I know).
But yes I think people need to work because I mostly think what happens is those who dont live lives of chaos, which ends up providing careers for the middle class who support them in a variety of ways!

Galaxy

I think the lives that people tend to lead without ever having the structure of a job are generally not conducive to good mental health.

I suppose a job represents a purpose in life and of course, a means to earn a living.

But, two things - for those who feel they have no stake in the society in which they live because all that's open to them is menial, dead-end jobs under which their meagre pay will mean an indefinite struggle for the basic necessities - you can kind of see why that structure might become fairly meaningless.

Of course, some will say, "well, they should better themselves and find a more rewarding job". Which is true, but that will depend on their level of education and the opportunities available. It was easier I think in the days before labour deregulation when there were jobs where you could start at the bottom and work your way up. I don't think there are many chances like that now, it's mostly contract work where you have a number of hours working for one company and have to make up the rest of those hours working for another.

The other 'thing' is that even with a good full-time job - one you enjoy that pays relatively well and gives you a good structure to your life - an illness, or a major family 'event' that throws you off kilter, can cause the whole pace of your life into tatters.

That happened to me. I won't go into details, but one moment my life, as a single parent, was balanced - good job, affordable child-care, disposable income, things to look forward to, plans for the future... the next moment it all came crashing down around me, due to an 'event' over which I had little to no control. And for a while (too long) I became one of those 'dependent on benefits'.

Fortunately, the timing of this was during an era and climate where the necessary 'help' was more available, and where there were more opportunities to get back-in-the-saddle. The 'good-life' was still a possibility - all it needed was a bit of effort on my part - and it all seemed well worthwhile. I had secure, rented (and affordable) accommodation in a 'desirable' location; the child-minder had become a friend; my GP was sympathetic (and I could always get an appointment with him); there were a number of relatively well-paid jobs available. Having fallen off the ladder, getting back on it again was comparatively easy.

If that had happened to me today, I think it would be a completely different story / outcome. Times have changed so much, globalisation, the deregulation of the labour market, the shortage of affordable rented accommodation; the paucity of meaningful, well-paid work; have all contributed to a sense of insecurity about all aspects of life where the future simply becomes a matter of 'getting-by' rather than living a structured life.

When I 'fell of the ladder' - I still had hope, today I think I would feel hopeless.

All I know is that since retiring I have been happier than when I was at work. I keep busy (possibly because of socialisation) but do what I want to do because I want to do it, as opposed to doing it because it’s Friday, and I prefer it that way.

If worklessness means poverty, and the need to report to others about how you spend your time then yes, I can see how MH might be affected.

Barleyfields

I’m obviously very thick but I don’t understand how the US system works to cover a situation where the working spouse pays the tax the one at home might have paid had they been working. It seems just to be a way of filing one return instead of two. Obviously I haven’t studied it properly.

The US equivalent of healthcare contributions covering a spouse is the same as many private health insurance schemes here, which can cover family members.

No you're not thick, my explanation was not precise.

The USA income tax system merely has 4 categories of taxpayers Maried-joint, married filing separately, single, and head of household.

My idea is: more categories - I'd think a working spouses income could be used for taxes and NI of a non-working spouse.

The charts I linked show that to be true.

When this topic comes up I think to that system. We've lived with my brother in NYC, I worked for him, payed income tax, social security (their state pension), and medicare (medical care after 65 and medical care for all ages of poor people and some benefits regarding disability and children survivor benefits). We were also in the group health insurance policy as a work benefit.

No, medicare and medicade are quite different than private health insurance schemes here. Medicare is for over 65. There is a small portion for Medicaid (medical care for the poor, disabled, survivors under 18).

The health insurance they purchase under for 65 - is quite good in my experience, 92% of Americans have health insurance. I know we read news bits about their lack of adequate health care - we've been quite pleased with health care when living with my brother for a couple of months.

I think the lives that people tend to lead without ever having the structure of a job are generally not conducive to good mental health.

I certainly don't think anyone cruises through life on benefits. I think it is very difficult to claim these days, and would find being constantly answerable very difficult.

I'm not sure about the links with MH either. I think that whereas in some cases having a fulfilling career is definitely good for MH and self-esteem, all too often a badly paid, low status and routine job will bring none of those benefits, and that shiftwork and long hours can be very difficult, both mentally and physically.

Mollygo

Churchview

It's perfectly possible to lead a productive life without working.

Meaningful activity doesn't need to be paid or voluntary work in order to provide mental health and esteem benefits

Perfectly true, but what about when you need the benefits that paid work would entitle you to get?

My post was in response to Iam64's 17.52 post about the link between good mental health and working.

I wasn't advocating not working, but saying that people who don't work e.g. the retired or disabled could lead productive lives and that work is not the only route to good mental health.

To those saying it's possible to cruise through life on benefits I would just say that my dear brother is severely disabled and will never be able to work. He has to jump through hoops on a regular basis to obtain his benefits and the process is so stressful and arduous that, were I not to help him, he would be unable to achieve it. I can't imagine how people sail through the system on a life of benefits...it's not as easy as it looks from the outside.

A bit like the boomers thread, it's not helpful to corral people and all their compexities into these categories.
I'm afraid a friend of mine has a daughter who appears to thrive inspite of some odd life choices. But we never really know, do we.

PoliticsNerd

So we're many men David49. They could be said to have "sponged" off the unpaid labour of wives who would certainly have enabled many men in their career.

Some seem to have forgotten the huge changes in the growth in first the playgroup movement, then child care, and statutory maternity leave during the 1970s and 80s. The later created and expectation of limited time as well as a payment for time caring for a child. It's structure also helped to move the age at which women have their children and whether the do actually have any. The attitude of society was also very different then too.

The women who had their children during this time would now make up the bulk of women pensioners and the bulk of those on Pension Credit - those dreadful "spongers" as some seem to see them. In 2023 Pension Credit went two-thirds to women, one-third to men. Perhaps some real research before attributing blame would help.

'Some' have specifically mentioned that there is a huge difference between being at home with babies and toddlers of maternity leave and playgroup age, and not working when children are older and at school all day. I don't think that 'some' have said or implied that people on PC are spongers either. Perhaps some real reading of the actual thread before misinterpreting what 'some' are saying would help.

nanna8

I never thought I would think this after Starmer’s start but I actually think he is improving. Especially in his dealings with Trump. Thank the Lord.

Or you could be getting used to someone doing their job rather than offering circuses but no bread.

So we're many men David49. They could be said to have "sponged" off the unpaid labour of wives who would certainly have enabled many men in their career.

Some seem to have forgotten the huge changes in the growth in first the playgroup movement, then child care, and statutory maternity leave during the 1970s and 80s. The later created and expectation of limited time as well as a payment for time caring for a child. It's structure also helped to move the age at which women have their children and whether the do actually have any. The attitude of society was also very different then too.

The women who had their children during this time would now make up the bulk of women pensioners and the bulk of those on Pension Credit - those dreadful "spongers" as some seem to see them. In 2023 Pension Credit went two-thirds to women, one-third to men. Perhaps some real research before attributing blame would help.