US/Greenland - charm offensive fails but.......

Rosie51

So you're acknowledging that we can't trust Trump or the USA farther than we can throw them? NATO means nothing if it isn't in American interests? He wants Greenland for USA's benefit and nothing else. Time for Europe to get its act together. We know both Trump and Putin wanted Brexit because they want to smash the largest trading block and united force. Even if the UK doesn't rejoin the trading block we definitely need to all come together for defensive reasons. If Turkey ever wants to join the EU hopefully the member states will remind them where their loyalties should lie, and that's not with Russia. This won't happen overnight but we have to start and today isn't too soon.

We cannot rely on Trump to protect our freedoms as they have done since WW2, Europe has got to step up and be responsible for its own security. We should not rely on a Democrat revival in 4 yrs reversing policies, western liberal values have been underpinned by US power, once that has been reduced it will be hard to restore.

I don’t have great confidence that is going to be easy there are too many divisions

So you're acknowledging that we can't trust Trump or the USA farther than we can throw them? NATO means nothing if it isn't in American interests? He wants Greenland for USA's benefit and nothing else. Time for Europe to get its act together. We know both Trump and Putin wanted Brexit because they want to smash the largest trading block and united force. Even if the UK doesn't rejoin the trading block we definitely need to all come together for defensive reasons. If Turkey ever wants to join the EU hopefully the member states will remind them where their loyalties should lie, and that's not with Russia. This won't happen overnight but we have to start and today isn't too soon.

mae13

Greenland, Canada and the next item on Trumps shopping list will be the UK. A conveniently situated island very strategically placed for attacking Russia.

No, Trump wants Europe to look after itself, to defend its own freedoms, there are going to be some big changes to achieve that

Greenland, Canada and the next item on Trumps shopping list will be the UK. A conveniently situated island very strategically placed for attacking Russia.

Only another 3 years 9 months before his time is up. If only the Democrats could get their act in order and stiffen their knees and find someone charismatic and courageous enough to take him on, as things are at the moment, he or Vance may be beatable.

In the meantime, less than 2 years to the mid-term elections.

“Well, he must be stopped.”

That is the problem isn’t it how do you stop Trump.

Here is a hypothetical scenario.
Trump takes over Greenland,
Europe applies sanctions on the US
US pulls out of NATO, we are going to be far too busy defending ourselves against Russia to give a single thought to a few Greenlanders.

International Law or Moral Principles cannot be applied to any of the superpowers, China and Russia already ignore them the US will probably follow

So WW2 how do you control Trump

That is clearly not true of the US Trump has just been elected and in 4 yrs time another president will be elected. You might not like Trumps policies but he was elected and is able to make the decisions he has

Many of the countries we exploit are not democracy’s and are run by corrupt governments with policies that do not benefit the population.

They are the same countries that we do not send migrants back to because they are not safe

Charm? Really?

david49 is incorrectly conflating quite a few issues.

Trumps expansionist policies are just that, and what is being discussed.

The Greenlanders have used their democratic vote and voted for independence. What that independence will eventually look like is yet to be decided.

Greenland is a European country, and clearly rich in various minerals. These do not belong to the USA nor should they.

Trump is both a bully and a greedy transactionist (is there such a word?) who will not stop at using the USA’s power to get what he wants.

Well, he must be stopped.

Simple as.

Trump says he wants Europe to stand on its own two feet and doesn’t want to be involved so it seems a bit of a double standard there. He wants to be involved when there’s something in it for him , be it minerals or whatever. A dangerous man. Sad because things could have been so very different as regards US / European relationships.

David49

fancythat

Everything is exploitation we exploit many countries

Which countries do the Uk exploit?

Every country we buy cheap goods from, every country where raw materials are mined, all those working in factories and mines that we would not tolerate, all those in countries where they don’t have freedom of speech.

But we don't threaten to take over their whole country without their consent unless they give us access to mine those raw materials ourselves.

In answer to that, you may say that in the past we have done similar things. However, the world (or the civilised three quarters of it) has moved on from that style of "diplomacy". Trump and co believe that it should return to "negotiating" in that way.

They also believe that democracy is an ineffective method of government, and that one strong figure making draconian unilateral decisions should be at the helm of the ship of state, erasing their own history, ignoring the constitution (which was hammered out by statesmen creating the Union, and modified in detail by consensus in successive eras) and instead using force or the threat of it to impose their own bigotry.

What an arrogant bullying lot the american government are. Now who do we know that thought you just say you are taking over someone elses country ? Oh yes Adolf Hitler!! I wonder if Trump has any genetic connection with him? He certainly copies the style, and Vance is just as bad.

I have been to Greenland and found the people very welcoming and I support them in their refusal of this disgraceful behaviour. Between Putin and Trump they just think that they can grab whatever they want by any means. We must stand against them in every way. Why we have ever thought that we have , or want , a special connection to these bullies I do not know. They cannot be trusted except to know that their total attitude is to grab everything they can and also then want us to pay for it. Resist them all

David49

fancythat

For Europe to be capable, how long do you think that would take?

10 yrs plus assuming they agree to do anything, since WW2 the US has been the glue to hold everything together, without that I worry

I have in mind 10 years as well.

In the meantime, I think we have to be grateful to the US.

Personally, I would only agree with your 3rd example.
And a bit of the first.

But I take your point.

But not the same as Trump wanting to take Greenland or whatever he has in mind.

fancythat

^Everything is exploitation we exploit many countries^

Which countries do the Uk exploit?

Every country we buy cheap goods from, every country where raw materials are mined, all those working in factories and mines that we would not tolerate, all those in countries where they don’t have freedom of speech.

fancythat

For Europe to be capable, how long do you think that would take?

10 yrs plus assuming they agree to do anything, since WW2 the US has been the glue to hold everything together, without that I worry

This is rather like having that obnoxious, grumpy, ill-mannered, foul-mouthed, very distant relative invite themselves over for Christmas!

Everything is exploitation we exploit many countries

Which countries do the Uk exploit?

For Europe to be capable, how long do you think that would take?

My only point here is that Greenland needs someone to protect them if there are resources, their population can’t do it. If not Denmark the US is the best choice, realistically I don’t see US standing by and allowing any other power becoming established.

To replace the subsidy they get from Denmark they would have to sell mining rights to others who would bring in their own workers to exploit those resources. They would want to defend those interests and would quickly overwhelm the locals.
Personally I would trust the US a great deal more than any of the other potential exploiters, others may disagree.

Maisie
Russia invaded Ukraine we were totally unprepared, worse we allowed Russia to gear up defence industry to a point where Ukraine can’t win. We have proved ourselves Paper Tigers, we growl a lot but back off from doing anything, we try to respect “international law” the opposition dont.

It now seems Putin will get his way in Ukraine, having modernized his military the Baltic States will be in his sights, Europe isn’t capable of doing anything effective we had better hope the US is still with us.

Luckygirl3

*.... , becoming US citizens isn't the worst fate for Greenlanders is it.*

Yup - it is.

No it isn't. Russian or Chinese would be worse. It will never happen anyway.

David49

Whitewavemark2

It has nothing to do with security, but everything to do with exploitation.

Everything is exploitation we exploit many countries, if it’s economic Greenland is going to be exploited, the only question is by who, you are obviously happy for it to be the Russians

Quite a twist of logic there, David49!

David49

Whitewavemark2

It has nothing to do with security, but everything to do with exploitation.

Everything is exploitation we exploit many countries, if it’s economic Greenland is going to be exploited, the only question is by who, you are obviously happy for it to be the Russians

Quite the leap there. WW2 said nothing of the sort.

Interested to know why you are so eager to convince us the US isn't in the wrong here David.

Look at Ukraine, they thought their friends would defend them, they can’t win against the might of Russia, their friends - that’s us, have sent them a few old tanks and some missiles.

It's amazing how the 'might of Russia' has taken 3 years over their 'three day special operation' and have still only managed minimal gains in Ukraine.

I think you've been too easily impressed by Russia's May Day parades David

Whitewavemark2

It has nothing to do with security, but everything to do with exploitation.

Everything is exploitation we exploit many countries, if it’s economic Greenland is going to be exploited, the only question is by who, you are obviously happy for it to be the Russians