Trans women and single-sex spaces

Galaxy

I suppose my worry is historically the courts have at times got things very wrong for women.

Because they’re mostly male, I guess.

Just out of interest Cabbie, what part does she sing in the choir?

Surely a male voice in the women’s section affects the performance.

Or is a just for fun choir so it doesn’t matter?

I hadn’t even thought of how choirs would be affected.

I suppose my worry is historically the courts have at times got things very wrong for women.

Smileless2012

Do you know why this issue has become a talking point Cabbie and why up until recently it has never been an issue, not just for you and your friend but for transgenders in general?

It's because women weren't being subjected to men claiming to be women while displaying their genitalia in women's changing rooms. It's because lesbian speed dating meetings hadn't previously had trans women insisting that they be allowed to attend. It's because women fighting for the retention of safe spaces for women, weren't being threatened and intimidated by trans activists. It's because never before had a rapist, now claiming to be a trans woman been referred too by his defence counsel and the presiding judge as she (Lexi Secker).

None of the aforementioned relate to your friend or to the over whelming majority of those who live as their preferred gender, but this has and continues to happen and it has to stop.

It came about because Sturgeon and the SNP government gave people with a Gender Recognition Certificate the same rights as appropriately sexed natal people.

Yes so much hangs on this ruling, all fingers crossed. Scottish women have had to endure being the guinea pigs in this matter for too long. Commiserations to the women of Scotland.

Do you know why this issue has become a talking point Cabbie and why up until recently it has never been an issue, not just for you and your friend but for transgenders in general?

It's because women weren't being subjected to men claiming to be women while displaying their genitalia in women's changing rooms. It's because lesbian speed dating meetings hadn't previously had trans women insisting that they be allowed to attend. It's because women fighting for the retention of safe spaces for women, weren't being threatened and intimidated by trans activists. It's because never before had a rapist, now claiming to be a trans woman been referred too by his defence counsel and the presiding judge as she (Lexi Secker).

None of the aforementioned relate to your friend or to the over whelming majority of those who live as their preferred gender, but this has and continues to happen and it has to stop.

TerriBull

Bridie22

I agree Grannygravy, why do we have to define just the word Woman, but not Man?
Be it that there are transmen and transwomen?

Oh yes I agree! I was discussing that point with my husband this morning, we're absolutely at one on this, I think many men are and support women's desire for women only spaces. Also in a discussion a while back about mixed changing rooms when buying clothes, many shops were adopting that at the time, he made the point "men don't want to embarrass or feel their presence is a threat to women neither do they want to feel embarrassed" maybe he was speaking for an older demographic when he said that men too want separate changing areas.

Once we have a ruling on the definition of woman, the same will apply to man. It's just that the case has been brought by women against the Scottish Government (funded by the Scottish taxpayers)

Bridie22

I agree Grannygravy, why do we have to define just the word Woman, but not Man?
Be it that there are transmen and transwomen?

Oh yes I agree! I was discussing that point with my husband this morning, we're absolutely at one on this, I think many men are and support women's desire for women only spaces. Also in a discussion a while back about mixed changing rooms when buying clothes, many shops were adopting that at the time, he made the point "men don't want to embarrass or feel their presence is a threat to women neither do they want to feel embarrassed" maybe he was speaking for an older demographic when he said that men too want separate changing areas.

Cabbie21

Both my trans friends would, even at a second glance, be assumed to be female. I knew them for a couple of months before I was fully aware and only because of something they said. One is an alto in one of the choirs I sing in and nobody bats an eyelid that she uses the Ladies’ loos and changing rooms. It seems some people on here would seriously expect her to use the Gents?

From a toilet point of view, do people really look that closely at others?

I would like all loos to be individual an available to all. I am also glad we don't have American loos. Not a lot of privacy with big gaps at the top and bottom.

I to wish to treat all with respect, as I expect the trans sector to respect women.

First we have the Nazis, then we have the “persecuted”.

There is no group PN. Just a lot of women who disagree with you on this issue.

You know, the debate that the trans movement didn’t want to allow. It’s just that you are in a minority and your arguments are weak.

Hence the slide to specious comparisons and diversion.

Cabbie21

I come to this topic as a real life situation, not as a theoretical concept.
I have known my choir friend for several years, long before this became a talking point, and I have always known her as female. It has never been an issue. Everyone accepts her as she presents. Nobody has been made to feel uncomfortable that she uses ladies’ changing rooms. Why would they?
I fully understand that this would not be the case for every trans person.

I don’t know how the young female relative, now a man, works things out, but I respect their decision and wish to treat them with courtesy. It is still early days. I sometimes struggle to say He, just because I have known them as She for years. If we were in a café I have no idea which loo they would go to. The decision is theirs. Is that going to change?

Yes, it may well change depending on the judgement

Exactly! "safe spaces for all" For women, that has to be single sex places for natal women and girls in areas where they could be rendered vulnerable. For trans women a third space that they don't have to share with men. Trans men, well we hear little from them, but of course, they should be afforded that same safe 3rd place, for their protection and for the men who may be embarrassed about sharing such a space with a person they perceive not to be male.

Going back to the use of language, Imo framing an individual point of view around rhetoric that includes Nazism, genocides etc. detracts from the enormity of those dreadful happenings. Genocides relate to the mass killing of human beings based on their ethnicity/race/religion/tribal affiliation. Emily Bridges trans woman cyclist accused British Cycling bosses of furthering "a genocide" after transgender riders were banned from the female category. To trivialise heinous acts in such a way to make an analogy between mass slaughter and being miffed at not being able to enter a sporting event because they simply did not meet the qualifying stipulations is beyond crass and I do wonder whether people who use such terms actually know what a genocide is, or what happened under the Nazis. Such terminology gets bandied about so frequently these days, and in the most ridiculous contexts, it renders it meaningless, and that in itself is a travesty.

I come to this topic as a real life situation, not as a theoretical concept.
I have known my choir friend for several years, long before this became a talking point, and I have always known her as female. It has never been an issue. Everyone accepts her as she presents. Nobody has been made to feel uncomfortable that she uses ladies’ changing rooms. Why would they?
I fully understand that this would not be the case for every trans person.

I don’t know how the young female relative, now a man, works things out, but I respect their decision and wish to treat them with courtesy. It is still early days. I sometimes struggle to say He, just because I have known them as She for years. If we were in a café I have no idea which loo they would go to. The decision is theirs. Is that going to change?

GrannyGravy13

OldFrill yes this judgement is important.

My problem is why on earth in 2025 does anyone or any government need a judgement to tell them what a women is?

It is insulting to women and should be insulting to the majority of men!

Scottish Tax Payers are paying for this.

I am not very hopeful about todays ruling I am afraid but we will see.

OldFrill yes this judgement is important.

My problem is why on earth in 2025 does anyone or any government need a judgement to tell them what a women is?

It is insulting to women and should be insulting to the majority of men!

You cannot have 'safe spaces for all' PoliticsNerd if the safety of women is compromised by allowing men into women's safe spaces.

I agree Grannygravy, why do we have to define just the word Woman, but not Man?
Be it that there are transmen and transwomen?

OldFrill, I’ve been following related news in Scotland, makes me angry and despairing ,

Ha "father" Freudian slip maybe 🤔

Iam64

GrannyGravy13

I don’t see men having to have their sex defined in the High Court, unlike the case today defining what is a woman

I for one know what a women is, as do the rest of the female population, unfortunately some males seem to think that by putting on a dress they should have entry to our spaces…

Exactly

You obviously have no idea what's been happening in Scotland and why this judgement is so important.
The implications either way reach father than what any individual thinks.

GrannyGravy13

I don’t see men having to have their sex defined in the High Court, unlike the case today defining what is a woman

I for one know what a women is, as do the rest of the female population, unfortunately some males seem to think that by putting on a dress they should have entry to our spaces…

Exactly

sadly it’s obvious that a group on gransnet do not care about others rights, only their own opinions. What a patronising and incorrect view of posters whose views you don’t share and attempt to dismiss as just wrong.

In case of any misunderstanding, I share the opinions of Doodle, Galaxy, Rosie and other here who support the rights of adult human females to safe spaces.

Which poster is far right on here PN. If you continue to make allegations like this I will respond in kind. I am all for equality.