Trans women and single-sex spaces

So that we can learn from this debacle. It might also act as a warning to politicians etc not to chant mantras without using some critical thinking.
We don't actually need a list we are very well aware of the politicians and organisations that failed, and those who showed bravery.

If anti-abortionists aren't permitted to peacefully hold placards and silently pray within a certain distance of clinics then surely the same 'exclusion zone' policy could be applied to toilets?

Excellent point.

Galaxy

I wonder if it is about to end the career of Maggie Chapman, we should keep some sort of record of the politicians and organisations that it has destroyed.

Why would you want to do that?

How times change - Teresa May supported aspects of self ID in 2017 as debates continued in the then government on the GRA and talked about trans rights.

Yes, expectations were created but of course no one then imagined the rise of the very aggressive group of men using the situation and the debate trying to "prove" biological changes. So much pain and damage.

But it remains, expectations were created which is why I think trans people do need clarification in the guidance about what they can do as opposed to what they can't do.

I wonder if it is about to end the career of Maggie Chapman, we should keep some sort of record of the politicians and organisations that it has destroyed.

My thoughts too Rosie, it makes sense to have an exclusion zone around any space reserved for biological women and to ensure that any protest is peaceful and non threatening.

We talked yesterday about last week's ruling with DS who lives in Perth and he said it's got out of hand in Aus. with trans rights superseding those of biological women.

What a tangled web we weave when we first practice to deceive this sums it up perfectly eazybee.

Yes Rosie, my thoughts entirely c.exclusion zone.
And spousal veto?, transwidows' organisations? and the use of pronouns in the marriage service?

What a tangled web we weave/When first we practice to deceive.

If anti-abortionists aren't permitted to peacefully hold placards and silently pray within a certain distance of clinics then surely the same 'exclusion zone' policy could be applied to toilets?

Grandma Batty:

"influx of aggressive males"

Attacking or abusing is illegal in changing rooms and toilets as elsewhere. While professional policing in every changing room is not possible, it's possible to supervise toilets and changing rooms with surveillance camera.

During past times mens' and ladies' toilets and changing rooms were staffed by an elderly person who cleaned the toilet seat, fetched a safety pin and so on, and oversaw general behaviour, but I suppose only the most expensive establishments employ such people now.

Wyllow3

I'm unsure, Galaxy, tbh, its a question rather than a statement of what I know for sure - If you have a GRC and your birth certificate is in your chosen name and pronouns as "she" how will this affect civil and marriage proceedings as well as everyday life pronouns can they still proceed as before.

I don’t think the ruling will make any difference in practice.

Same sex marriages/civil partnerships are an everyday part of our society so what difference will the ruling make to getting married?

People can call themselves what they like, it just has no impact on single sex places. Women can marry women, men can marry men, and women can marry men, so it has no impact on people's right to get married. There is a complex debate around the spousal veto and the issuing of a GRC, the transwidows organisations have done a fair bit of work explaining it and I still find it complex.

Carlotta

^Breach of the Peace law?^

We have Starmer's new National Violent Disorder programme already in place. But will it be used? Nah.

I was answering Molly's specific point about peaceful placards outside womens toilets.

Is it an age thing? I cannot believe that so many young people are trans.
I personally know 5 and know-of many more. One friend's DGC is non binary so does that mean they are not yet decided?
Please excuse my ignorance. I am quite old.

I have no objection to anyone's sexual orientation until I suppose it
infringes my own rights.

I did get annoyed when sharing a dormitory and bathroom, a couple of years ago, with a transgender woman who spent half an hour in the bathroom getting dressed, shaved and madeup while some of us had our legs crossed desperate for the loo!

I'm unsure, Galaxy, tbh, its a question rather than a statement of what I know for sure - If you have a GRC and your birth certificate is in your chosen name and pronouns as "she" how will this affect civil and marriage proceedings as well as everyday life pronouns can they still proceed as before.

44Galaxy

"Tickle v giggle is enlightening reading with regard to the situation in Australia. They have so far done exactly the opposite of the supreme Court judgement. There are some brave women fighting for womens rights in Australia."
It sounds like it is an issue in Australia then, contrary to what Nanna8 believes? I suppose if you look only at where you live, you might not see a problem. There isn't a big problem in my small village but more of an issue in the wider community

I am not sure what you mean about marriages?

Breach of the Peace law?

We have Starmer's new National Violent Disorder programme already in place. But will it be used? Nah.

Galaxy

Except now I think about it maybe it does threaten their existence, I was thinking about this the other day. They have been told over and over TWAW and now reality tells them they are not. This was always going to happen. Promoting this lie has been one of the cruelest things I have seen, because it was never going to hold. They need to be angry at the people who told them this lie.

I think it's reasonable to ask for guidance as regards what are their rights as part of the Guidelines. For example, the GRA and rights as regards civil partnerships and marriage, and clear reassurance there will be facilities as needed.

Mollygo

And now we have images of masked people carrying placards about trans rights, guarding the entrance to female toilets.
They aren’t actually hitting anybody, so no doubt some will praise it as peaceful but is it OK that trans and tra think it’s OK to intimidate women.

They're going to have to make some decisions on that as it's unacceptable. Breach of the Peace law?

Except now I think about it maybe it does threaten their existence, I was thinking about this the other day. They have been told over and over TWAW and now reality tells them they are not. This was always going to happen. Promoting this lie has been one of the cruelest things I have seen, because it was never going to hold. They need to be angry at the people who told them this lie.

It’s not a victory for an increase in unpleasant actions against trans people. We will not tolerate that.
But will they tolerate the increase in unpleasant actions against women?

That kind of language right to exist is part of why we are where we are. It is meaningless, of course people know trams people exist, we don't believe what they believe, that has no impact on their existence.

And now we have images of masked people carrying placards about trans rights, guarding the entrance to female toilets.
They aren’t actually hitting anybody, so no doubt some will praise it as peaceful but is it OK that trans and tra think it’s OK to intimidate women.

I think we will probably forgive the politicians, organisations, who furthered this sexist nonsense, but we won't forget. Although of course I can't speak for the women who were at the hard edge of it all.
We always knew that a lot of the work would be done by the activist themselves we just had to keep shining a light on the threats etc.

I also expect that the Guildelines will have to consider such matters as the status and meaning of the GRA for transpeople.

The day after the Supreme Court ruling, Kishwer Falkner, chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC), described yesterday’s supreme court ruling as “a victory for common sense, but only if you recognise that trans people exist.
They have rights, and their rights must be respected – then it becomes a victory for common sense. It’s not a victory for an increase in unpleasant actions against trans people. We will not tolerate that.”